Marxists and Gay liberation

[Volkov]

After looking around, my "it will be solved after the revolution" was extremely vague.  I should add that it will be solved by socialism, and we can only get issues toward that direction by explaining how capitalism cannot solve the problem, our opposition to the petty-Bourgeois nonsense, etc.  Perhaps we should get some kind of article sometime.  Perhaps this should be a topic for the upcoming Socialist Appeal. 

[Stonewall]

I have to agree with Irish. If you’re not even going to have an opinion on the matter, how are GLBT Americans supposed to know what your position is? And socialism will not automatically end prejudice, as working class members will still have some of their prejudices and religious tendencies left over from the capitalist era [consider it a “hangover”]. Just switching the state and economic system won’t overnight solve the problem and it’s ridiculously absurd to claim so. It’s absolutely ridiculous to think that after the revolution, all forms of prejudice, cultural differences and religion will “disappear” overnight.

In addition, I agree, it’d ridiculous to talk about British poets on the French Revolution and not have ONE SINGLE ARTICLE on GLBT rights and liberation. Which is more important, GLBT issues, or British poets and their take on the French Revolution? Certainly somebody could at least take the time to write one article on it?

[Stonewall]

And I don’t expect “criticism” and insults. I’d like an actual answer. How is all prejudice, cultural differences and religion supposed to “disappear overnight”? Instead of sitting idly and doing nothing on the issue, it’d kind of be logical, reasonable, prudent and rational to at least STATE A UNIFIED POSITION and to coordinate outreach programs/efforts/material to get GLBTs involved in a socialist organization.

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

I will give you an answer. Shouldnt we be getting rid of Capitalism, that is responsible for prejudice?
Or do you want to work within it?
Sexuality is an issue used by the ruling class to divide the working class. Lets attack the root.
Dont you agree?
There is a lot of prejudice amongst the working class. Some amongst militant trade unionists and amongst women.
You can only combat this by working within the class ,in the trade unions,  not by attacking IDOM.
What are YOU doing about that?
Lets keep a clear head and a marxist perspective and strive for CLASS UNITY against the owners of the means of production.

[Stonewall]

Once again, will prejudices disappear overnight once socialism is achieved? No. Will it disappear a couple generations of socialism? Yes. However, getting rid of capitalism won’t immediately get rid of the “hangovers” that socialists will have to deal with following conversion. That’s why positions should be taken ahead of time, so that there’s a clear idea of what’s going to be pursued following capitalism’s conclusion.

[MVPaviaItalia]

Of course we HAVE a position on the homosexuality issue and the position is to link that question to our general revolutionary goal through a transitional programme calling for democratic rights for GLBTs and through a daily practice of banning any kind of sexual discrimination in the fight organizations of the working class.

We just don't have a lengthy article about that on www.marxist.com.

The only comrade who told "the issue will be solved after the revolution" has already corrected his statement.

Comrade Stonewall shows a certain petty-bourgeois approach to such issue when he tells that we should think about how "to get GLBTs involved in a socialist organization". Gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgenders are already involved in our and many other left-wing organizations because one can find class fighters amongst gays in the same percentage (or even more) than amongst straights. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you can involve gays in the fight only if you talk about the gay issue! Gays suffer unemployment, low wages, wars etc as everybody else.

Indeed, it's quite typical of a machist mentality to suppose that GLBTs only care about their sex/gender condition and can be reached by our propaganda only if we talk a lot about those points. The same can be told about coloured people and racism, girls and the women's question, member of an ethnic minority and the national question etc. All these oppressed layers of society are made of full persons with a complete set of problems and needs.

[Dasher]

When black sections were proposed in the lp, Militant correctly opposed it as beinng divisive, if lgbt sections were proposed it would again be correct to oppose it.   Ted did cover all these issues in there turn in the perspectives docs. in the past.   TU's, Youth, women, black issues and gay issues were all covered in there importance to the building of the party and our tasks to draw in all types.  They then were drawn in and educated within the group to build the forces,  not by a gay/black cdes appealling to gay/black people to huddle together in a separate group, but they would win them on a class approach.  Pointing out that all workers face class discrimination under the class system.  Some groups obviously suffer more.  Do we allow the p/b groups to win us to their narrow outlook or do we try and win them to the marxist movement, arming them with a correct class outlook in order to be able to articulate, in class terms what is necessary for the emancipation of the working class as a whole. Which is the only solution whatever discrimination you face.  Teds swipe at the p/b sects was correct then as now.  Because it really is a dead-end. 

If reforms to ameliorate the position of gays in society were possible, why don't all the gay and closet gay mp's at Westminster , probably 20% at the moment, including Brown, unite across party lines to legislate in their favour?  They don't because class comes first and life is good anyway.  Life for middle-class gays must be better than life for a gay on a sink-estate and therefore the gay movement will split on class lines and reflect society as a whole.

 

[Stonewall]

Usually those that claim another person has a machinist mentality is suffering from a machinist mentality themselves.

I never claimed that those in the GLBT community only care about GLBT issues and to say such is putting words in my mouth, which I absolutely won’t tolerate. Instead of twisting my words around, how about re-reading what I said and trying to comprehend it.

The point still remains, prejudice will remain under a socialist society and there should be guidelines to follow to restrict the influence of prejudice after capitalism is disposed. 

[Dasher]

Once again, will prejudices disappear overnight once socialism is achieved? No. Will it disappear a couple generations of socialism? Yes. However, getting rid of capitalism won’t immediately get rid of the “hangovers” that socialists will have to deal with following conversion. That’s why positions should be taken ahead of time, so that there’s a clear idea of what’s going to be pursued following capitalism’s conclusion.

I agree with you here, nothing wrong with constructing a code now or deciding things of this character during a revolutionary transformation when genuine human spirit and tolerance would be the mindset of the masses who will decide on that basis.

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

Why don't the GLBT community get involved with the Marxist movement?
Why do we have to go to them?
Socialists are socialists and through a common perspective for the transformation of society all socialists should unite.
Of course there will be prejudice wether it be sexual , racial , age, disability or religion. The point is that socialism will not exploit the differences like capitalism does. In time the material conditions for division will wither away.
More and more members of the GLBT community will realise that socialism is the way forward.As jobs and wages are threatened and living conditions deteriorate all sections of the community will unite in struggle like they did during the 84/85 miners strike.

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

I have a question here for Irish Militant.
Do Marxists get invoved with this campaign? Or are they hopeless bourgieous rubbish?

http://www.lgbtlabour.org.uk/

[Stonewall]

No one said you should “go to them”. The point is that prejudice and intolerance will remain following the revolution. Socialism isn’t an immediate cure to injustice and discrimination. Fighting for GLBT rights is just as important as fighting for women’s rights, African American rights and the rights of immigrants. It all goes hand in hand.

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

Fighting for workers rights is fighting for GLBT rights. Thats what Im saying. I have already made my point about prejudice surviving into socialism above.

[Stonewall]

"socialism will not exploit the differences like capitalism does"

Doesn't make sense. Once again, if socialism is to be democratic [democratic socialism], people will still have a say so in governance. As long as prejudice is around, even under a socialist society, the majority could oppress the minority.

[Stonewall]

Working side by side with groups like http://www.hrc.org/ which are non-partisan.