Ancient dialectics - Tao Te Ching

[turnoviseous]

Has anyone read it? I was fascinated by it, because I was acquainted with dialectics before I discovered this book and its really amazing to see how much dialectical laws are developed in the book. I like the book, although its full of idealism.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/lao-tzu/works/tao-te-ching/index.htm

[turnoviseous]

Also, one good quote concerning the origin of matter:

"The Tao is infinite, eternal. Why is it eternal? It was never born; thus it can never die."

[poplar]

I read part of it, but it's a bit difficult to understand... The difficulty was not mainly caused by its content, but its ancent Chinese. You know, some explanations of certain words are even still under discussing here among the ancent Chinese experts. As to editiongs translated into other languanges...

Maybe you know the book The Art of War? I read an edition in English, and unfortunately, there has been a mistake just in the first  chapter. It seems that the translator lacks in the knowlege of ancent Chinese.

If you are really intersted in Chinese culture, welcome to learn Chinese!:) It's not so difficult as you'd ever heard--I think.

Anyhow, that's an interest book. There are also some interesting Chinese books, if any of you, my comrades, I'd love to introduce some for you.:)

[mir]

The Art of War I have heard explains that guerrila warfare is the best and I agree with it.  Can you give me some more examples of chinese dialectics, poplar?

[turnoviseous]

Hmm, well I know the book The Art of War written by Sun Tzu.

As much as Chinese language is concerned...I think that it would be a bit hard for me, or at least I would have to spend a lot of my time to study it. Ive heard that people study Chinese "letters" for 8 years in China, now if that is true, then I call it hard!! :D

[mir]

For us Jugoslavs, Poplar, Serbo-Croatian is easy because each word is spelled the way it sounds. :D

[mir]

I've read some Tao Te Ching and so far, it's very good.  I must read it all.

[poplar]

mir, you heard that The Art of War explains that guerrila warfare is the best ? Oh, no, I'm sorry, I don't think so. It mentioned little about the guerilla. Quite oppsite, the whole book explained how to hold an normal warfare. Or, exactly speaking, that book explained the most general principles of war. So, although that book is not paticularly explaining the guerrila, the principles in the book should also be obeyed. As to the guerilla, it cannot always be the best. I even feel that it is the choice when there's no other choices left.  

Tao Te Ching (in Chinese way we spell it as "Dao De Jing") is the most famous and outstanding Chinese dialectics work. It do worth a read. Yi Jing(I don't know how you spell it) is another very important book on dialectics, which is earlier than Tao Te Ching and affected all the thingkers in China, in cluding Kong Fu tzi (am I in the right spelling way?), and also the author of Tao Te Ching( It is even under discussion that whether its author Li er or Lao tzi really exist in history:) ) So, the book Yi Ching should also be read.

After Lao tzi, who was the starter of Dao sect (the Dao sect is the school of thought which researches the dialectics), the great thinker Zhuang tzi should also be noticed. His book, Nan Hua Jing( or Zhuang tzi, ancient Chinese work is often named with the name of its auther.).

The Art of War is also full of dialectic thinking, and it is also considered as a philosophy work here in China.

All the ancient Chinese works have a good value in aesthetic appreciation.I like reading them very much. But once they are translated, it is a bit difficult in retaining it. Sure, this accous in any translation. What a pitty.

Dialectists after them are not so famous. Their book is even not known by commen people in China, let alone translated into other languages.

[mir]

Thank you for clearing me up about the Art of War, do you happen to have a link to it so that I may read it?

[petrel]

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/sun-tzu/works/art-of-war/index.htm

[mir]

Thanks!

[poplar]

Hello, my comrades. I've just read this edition, and found the same mistake made in Chapter 1.

"22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. "

Here, the Chinese word "nu" is translated into "choleric temper". This is not correct. In modern Chinese, the word "nu" indeed means "angry", but in the ancient Chinese, especially used 2000 years ago, it here should mean "excited". The word "nu" at first only means so, and the meaning of "angry" was commenly used many years later.

So, the sentence should be tanslated like this:
"If your enemy are excited, try to frustrate them."

comradely,

[System-Failure]

I just started reading the Art of War and am quite enjoying it.
I especially like Jhuge Liang's development of Master Sun's work.
Here are some of my favourite excerpts from Jhuge's commentary...

One who's humanitarian care extends to all under his command, whose trustworthiness and justice win the alliance of neighbouring nations, who understands the signs of the sky above, the patterns of the earth below and affairs of humanity in between, and regards all people as his family, is a world class leader, one who cannot be opposed.

Generals do not say that they are hungry before the soldier's food is cooked... do not use fans in summer, do not wear leather in winter do not use umbrellas in the rain. They do as everyone else does.