1920's Germany

[jpjones]

I was wondering if anyone more learned than myself could answer this question:  does the current administration in America not resemble that of Franz von Papen during the Weimar period?  Papen was chancellor solely because Hindenburg desired him to be chancellor, and then promptly convinced the general that handing power to Hitler was a smashing idea.  George W. seems to be of a similar intellectual level, and his cabinet is packed with the same sort of reactionaries that surrounded Papen.  Would this indicate that America is marching down the road to Fascism, or is this relationship not as close as I see it?  Much appreciated.

[DanT]

Well, although things aren't exactly going great here in the USA we're still a far way away from Fascism.  I know there are some good texts on that the other comrades will plug ;-)
The main thing that I'm thinking of off the top of my head is the social situation at the time.  Weimar was collapsing, and Papen was there to forestall the revolution (which in the end could only be done by Hitler, and the betrayal of the working class by Stalin).  Democracy was already falling apart (although it doesn't work well here, it's still a much better situation) and the working class was forcing the battle to fought in the open.  Right now in the US, the class war is still only now reemerging from beneath the surface.  Bush is definitely a step in the wrong direction, as the ruling class attempts to hold back the revolution through more conventional means.  But we're still far from the point of catasrophe that Papen represented.  So although I definitely can see the similarities, we're still not in the same social situation.

Also, I want to throw a plug in here.  There are two definitive (for my money) texts on the rise and fall of the third reich, the first being Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, which if you can get through the 1500 pages is WELL worth it.  The other is done by IDoM's Rob Sewell.  His book Germany From Revolution to Counter-Revolution is EXCELLENT.  Check it out at:

http://www.marxist.com/germany/
It's good reading!

[jpjones]

Thanks for the insight...I've checked out the WellRed book online and it is quite good, especially when hilighting the criminal neglect practiced by the leaders of the Social Democrats and the leaders of the labor movement.  There are a few books I've read on the Weimar Republic, the best of which is "Germany Tried Democracy" (great title) by William Halpern.  It was written in 1946, which partially explains the title, and it was written close enough to the period 1918-1933 to be fairly accurate.  Halpern definitely shows a centrist bias, most consistently applauding the efforts of Stresemann, Ebert and the ill-fated Bruening.  
   I think I should rephrase what I was saying about the comparison between Bush and Papen.  What I should have been saying is that even if the actual circumstances in the two instances (now and 1932) are certainly not analogous, it still remains that Papen and Bush are similarly styled reactoinaries.  By this, I mean that as Bush is chained to the oil industry, Papen was tied to coal.  Bush is apparantly of little intelligence, while Papen's idea of educated policy-making was to quote Hitler nearly word-for-word.  Papen packed his cabinet with titled reactionaries with significant ties to big business, Bush, well...you know.  Am I analyzing specific personalities more than I should?

[des-esseintes]

I'm thinking because American nationalism is so fused with the notions of freedom and democracy, an eventual fascist state could never be overt - it would have to be under the guise of and using the customs of the Republic, like Caesar's empire. Nominal democracy, actual dictatorship. Am I right?

Well, if I am, the US is pretty close to a fascist state IMO. We'll just have to wait for some dangerous demonstrations to find out...

[jpjones]

Ok, if this is true, that the US is moving at a quickened pace towards fascism (either overt or clandestine), isn't the tendency here in a very dangeous position?  And if the labor movement's leaders are in the pocket of the forces that are leading the country down the fascist road, we will be encountering far more resistance than we could normally expect from bureaucrats.  I do not advocate panicked or hysterical acts, but this analysis would suggest that our time is running out, would it not?

[des-esseintes]

Well, it's no secret that the govt. is always seeking to expand its authority as much as possible ... and the Patriot Act contains "anti-terrorist" laws of such a nature that one would expect to find them only in a totalitarian state, laws that can tomorrow be used against the working class.

In fact I find it odd that this site hasn't been shut down by Bureau hackers long ago. :confused:

[redjordi]

Comrades should not lose sight of the fact that the US labour (or labor ;)  ) movement and working class is basically undefeated. In order for a fascist regime to come to power it must destroy the organised might of labor. Therefore there will be plenty of battles before that happens and plenty of opportunities for revolutionaries.

The US ruling class is obviously stepping up repression and perfecting its tools, but when trying to apply them it will face a powerful working class movement.

The marxist tendency in the US is still a very small organisation with limited influence (though attracting more and more comrades), so I would say it has not yet attracted much unwanted attention from the state.

The most effective way to fight state repression and infiltration is obviously to grow stronger and sink deep roots in the mass movement.

In the period which has already started our ideas will increasingly connect with the experience of a growing layer of workers and youth, so, be confident and go forward cormades!

redjordi