Parental Use of "Reasonable" Force

[the_sociallist]

Spanking invokes a sense of disipline and power between a parent and a child. It has positive affects if used correctly, thus not in the open and in moderation. Children have rights, but there has to be discipline as well. When you commit a crime as an adult and go to jail, does that not infringe upon your rights...you will say that the punishment is justified. So perhaps instead of spaking we should lock our kids in a room with no TV, stereo, or the like..only a chair and let them stay in there for a few hours...but than you will agrue that this is child abuse.
It works for adults and if we are going to gives kids the same rights as adults...than the punishment should be just as great.
You will argue that kids know no better and that is unjust....so how do you a teach a kid disclipline without punishment??

[Volkov]

Originally posted by the_sociallist
Spanking invokes a sense of disipline and power between a parent and a child. It has positive affects if used correctly, thus not in the open and in moderation. Children have rights, but there has to be discipline as well. When you commit a crime as an adult and go to jail, does that not infringe upon your rights...you will say that the punishment is justified. So perhaps instead of spaking we should lock our kids in a room with no TV, stereo, or the like..only a chair and let them stay in there for a few hours...but than you will agrue that this is child abuse.
It works for adults and if we are going to gives kids the same rights as adults...than the punishment should be just as great.
You will argue that kids know no better and that is unjust....so how do you a teach a kid disclipline without punishment??

I am not anti-punishment, I am anti-physcial punishment, which is in reality, leagalized assault.  Plus, since physcial punishment is already illegal in some nations, it is clear that physical punishment is not necessary.  Also, I have never heard of anyone calling a time out as child abusse.

[the_sociallist]

Originally posted by Volkov
I have never heard of anyone calling a time out as child abuse.

You lock you kid in an empty room for a few hours..yes it is a time out, but some can argue that is mental abuse.  Abuse comes in many forms, most of which is punishment to the extreme. Physical punishment should be allowed in a controled form.

[Volkov]

Originally posted by the_sociallist
You lock you kid in an empty room for a few hours..yes it is a time out, but some can argue that is mental abuse.  Abuse comes in many forms, most of which is punishment to the extreme. Physical punishment should be allowed in a controled form.

I don't know of any parents who would lock a kid up for that long, but there should be set limits to time outs and such.  Physical punishment should be otulawed because it can (and has) caused harm in children.  I have never heard of a form of physical punishment that is guaranteed not to leave emotional scars on a child.  Plus, physical punishment does not correct behavior like it is supposed to, it just gives temporary obedience out of fear toward the parents.  Children don't learn right from wrong due to physical punishment, they stop doing whatever they were doing out of fear of being hit.  On top of that, what if the child does that behavior outside of the house, and the parents don't know about that?  Since the child is not spanked outside of the house, the child will not drop that bad behavior.  Reasoning and nonviolent means work best, according to many psychologists, i.e. experts.

[the_sociallist]

Lets say your kid steals a kids lunch money at school...maybe the state should give the parent the option of taking thier kid to a facility overnight. Something like a jail. Would that teach them a lesson

[the_sociallist]

Originally posted by the_sociallist
Lets say your kid steals a kids lunch money at school...maybe the state should give the parent the option of taking thier kid to a facility overnight. Something like a jail. Would that teach them a lesson

Beats hitting the child
 

[mrbojangles]

so a kid should be locked up for stealing dinner money? jesus, i don't wanna even think about what you would do to a kid who actually committed a meaningful crime.........

[Vespucci]

I have to say I agree with bojangles on this one. The question is not "what do we do to kids who steal" but "why do kids steal?" Fair education, fairness in society and the end of poverty and class divisions - not to mention the dictatorship of money and property - should ensure that crime all but vanishes anyway. As for the situation we would now have, we would already know why the money was stolen. Whose image of society as a happy, wealthy family that we have force-fed by the politicians and television matches up with reality? No wonder kids want designer clothes and act like total brats these days. No bloody surprise that mobile phones are always being stolen and that houses are always being robbed. The punishment becomes unimportant if the political and economic situation is fair and equal for all of us. If there is any more need for it, I think parents would be wise enough to be given the discretion of a short sharp slap to signify inappropriateness, or not. Does it matter?

[Volkov]

Originally posted by mrbojangles
so a kid should be locked up for stealing dinner money? jesus, i don't wanna even think about what you would do to a kid who actually committed a meaningful crime.........

The kid should have to return the money and do work for the person he/she stole the money from to make up for the crime.  

Vespucci, I am against physical punishment because it does emotional damage in some cases;  we don't need emotional problems to oppress children further.  Plus, physical punishment is not always so effective like people claim it is.

[Vespucci]

Vespucci, I am against physical punishment because it does emotional damage in some cases; we don't need emotional problems to oppress children further. Plus, physical punishment is not always so effective like people claim it is.

True, and I don't think it should be formalised or made into a rigid system or anything, but sometimes a spontaneous slap or something is the best way of getting across a message. The parent needs to show understanding, but they shouldn't be afraid of a little directness to tell a child "this is inappropriate".

[Volkov]

Originally posted by Vespucci
True, and I don't think it should be formalised or made into a rigid system or anything, but sometimes a spontaneous slap or something is the best way of getting across a message. The parent needs to show understanding, but they shouldn't be afraid of a little directness to tell a child "this is inappropriate".

I disagree;  when it comes to children, violence does not get the point across;  a slap just says, "I am your parent, and I am more powerful than you.  If you don't do what I say, I will slap you again!!"  

A parent should say why the action is inappropriate, not just say that the action is inappropriate.  Examples:

"I am upset with what you did because it put you in danger;  that car in the street could have killed you!  I was so worried!!"

"I don't like it when you go places without telling me because I am worried that something happened.  I thought that someone kidnapped you!!  I love you, and it scares me when you wander off like that.  I love you, and I don't want to lose you at all!  Please tell me where you are going so that I don't get worried like that."

Basically, the parent should say what actions of the child bring pain and suffering to the parent;  the parents should say what they feel is harming them and the child;  they should not say something harsh or hit the child, for those messages make the child think that there is something wrong with him/her.

[the_sociallist]

Very well said.. you seem to have child rearing down to a science. So I will ask you a question...

If you do everything above and that fails, your child thinks that no matter what they do, they will only be talked to, nothing will ever happen. So they continue to mis-behave and get in trouble....What than????

[mir]

And that's why I have said that children are not as developed as adults.  Seriously, it is foolishness for us to go on and talk about children in the sense that they are like adults.  I don't suggest abusing them because they are not as developed, however.  Once we get passed think of children as miniature grown ups, then can we advance our theories.  Children should be nurtured, yet they SHOULD be punished when they make a mistake.  Maybe not be kicking the shit out of them, but by reasoning with them.  And if that doesn't work the first few times, there's always the belt handy.  I mean, I don't know where some of you get these statistics about the harmful effects of spanking on children.  Please point me to some of them.

[Volkov]

Originally posted by the_sociallist
Very well said.. you seem to have child rearing down to a science. So I will ask you a question...

If you do everything above and that fails, your child thinks that no matter what they do, they will only be talked to, nothing will ever happen. So they continue to mis-behave and get in trouble....What than????

Well, if they keep misbehaving, the parent obviously is not doing something right, and the parents and children should seek counselling.

Mir, the belt is considered as child abuse by most of the world as well, for it leaves marks and welts on kids.  

Mir, go to http://www.neverhitachild.org/

[mir]

I actually have to disagree with the site in the sense that I believe that there is a line where a child can cross where it makes spanking it "right."  Don't ask me to find the line because that varies to each person.