Marxism and the National Question

[CyM]

Marxism and the national question
by Alan Woods and Ted Grant

I'd like to recommend this work to anyone wishing to go deeper into the Marxist approach to the national question. This is a question which the bourgeois revolutions were supposed to solve, but the decay of capitalism is bringing it to the forefront again in violent ways.

An internationalist, working class policy is essential for the success of the revolutionary movement.

What are your thoughts on the national question? Have you read this document? What did you think of it?

[allpeopleunite]

I have read extensively on the national question in order to clarify my questions, including reading the entire polemic between Luxembourg and Lenin, to no avail. I still don't know where I stand on the national question, all I have learned is that it is very nuanced and that socialism is the only answer!

[caesarscook]

Has everyone read the WIL's (US) document on Black Struggle that was passed at last years congress?  It might be interesting to discuss that document on here as it draws conclusions that are quite different than those of most of the other socialist groups in the US.

[Dimitri]

Has everyone read the WIL's (US) document on Black Struggle that was passed at last years congress?  It might be interesting to discuss that document on here as it draws conclusions that are quite different than those of most of the other socialist groups in the US.

I've read most of it and I attended a discussion about it. What conclusions most of the other socialist groups in the US ? I am very curious. As the conclusions of the Black Struggle document are pretty standard marxist conclusions :S

I can understand it though as most groups there have long ago abandoned marxism and they are either opportunist and reformist  or ultra left.

[caesarscook]

Has everyone read the WIL's (US) document on Black Struggle that was passed at last years congress?  It might be interesting to discuss that document on here as it draws conclusions that are quite different than those of most of the other socialist groups in the US.

I've read most of it and I attended a discussion about it. What conclusions most of the other socialist groups in the US ? I am very curious. As the conclusions of the Black Struggle document are pretty standard marxist conclusions :S

I can understand it though as most groups there have long ago abandoned marxism and they are either opportunist and reformist  or ultra left.

The central difference is that we draw the conclusion of the first congresses of the Comintern, which is to view the oppression of Blacks in the US as a unique form of racial oppression, rather than national oppression.  The reason being that Black Americans do not in any way make up a "nation" in the sense this term has for Marxists, i.e. shared language, culture, territory, etc.  In fact, the struggle of Blacks in the US is virtually the exact opposite of a national struggle.  An oppressed nation is generally forced to assimilate by the oppressor nation, as with the Irish and Scottish on the British Isles or with American Indians closer to home.  This encourages a separatist reaction by the oppressed, providing the potential basis for a rising nationalism.  If you look at the history in the US, it was separation or segregation that was forced on Blacks by the whole history of chattel slavery and its aftermath.  The struggle has been for integration, not assimilation mind you, but integration of revolutionary character.  We also point out that the history of American capitalism is intimately tied to the question of racism and preventing unity between black and white workers, therefore the revolutionary integrationist aspirations of Black workers can only be realized through socialist revolution.

Other groups in the US, including most Trotskyist groups having their roots in the SWP, tend to take the view that the struggle of Black workers is that of national liberation.  They tend to argue for separate organizations for Black workers, etc., as to encourage their nationalist aspirations, which even if we were talking about a genuine national struggle, this still remains alien to the tradition of Leninism.  What is ironic is that these groups largely base themselves on a 180 degree opportunist turn that Stalinism did early on (the Black belt turn) and some scattered remarks made by Trotsky (who himself admitted was under-informed on the question) in the 30s.

Trotsky pointed out, correctly, that the transforming of the struggle of Black workers into a national struggle was a theoretical possibility, which it remains abstractly.  We would point out, however, that this remains probably the least likely course of events.  And we must base ourselves on the most likely, not the least likely, possibilities.  Were Blacks in the US to form themselves into a nation and demand self-determination, Marxists would have to support their right to do so, but it's quite another thing to encourage a racial oppressed minority to form themselves into a nation and fight separately from their class brothers and sisters.  It would be like Lenin encouraging the formation of the Jewish Bund before it actually formed!

[mohan]

A national state invariably means a capitalist state.

A capitalist state was supposed to do away with the old fetters of the feudal society and bring in a nation.
A nation would do away with all barriers of race, caste, creed, sex, language and bring all under one banner of a nation.

That was necessary for the capitalist economy to thrive at that time.
And so quite naturally they promoted it.

Building up of such nations was a relatively progressive role played by capitalism when we consider the old feudal society.
And so we may say that capitalism was relatively revolutionary in those days.

But then it crossed the days of free competition and entered into the days of monopoly capital - of imperialism.
It became reactionary.
Its economy gave rise to the antagonistic contradiction between the means of production and production relations.
Now calling for unity irrespective of all caste, creed, sex, language etc. into one nation was no longer in its interests.
now capitalism wanted to keep people divided. And so it cannot now fulfill the tasks of national revolution.
it is creating ethnic and racial strifes everywhere.

It is the duty of the socialists now to unite all. But the socialists don't aim to build a nation.
They want to go towards a communist society where there would be no barriers of any kind. Not even political barriers.
So they are actually opposed to the building of a nation.

but then there is a catch here!
since the formation of a nation is today detrimental to the interests of the capitalist class,
the socialists have in particular conditions raised the slogan of nationalism to unite people and used the contradiction against capitalism.
It does not mean that the socialists shall stop at creating nations.
They shall go beyond that to fulfill their goal.

[Paula Marx]

True communists ARE patriots. Not all of them are internationalists.

[JJM 777]

How is it possible to be truly Socialist without being truly internationalist?

Sounds a bit like being truly Socialist but still racist. Or truly Socialist but gleefully enjoying the hereditary (basically Capitalistic) economical inequality of nations.

[Paula Marx]

Why is it racist if you love your countri(es)?
Every race and every nation is independent and should stay so with tolerance and respecting.
All people should definitely be comrades and behave to each other brotherly, that's clear, but we don't want everyone to look the same and act the same, do we? Internationalism is the part of exploitation (look at the USA, the EU and the USSR). None of them are (were) really functioning. Internationalism in reality is some kind of modern colonization.

[JJM 777]

Why is it racist if you love your countri(es)?

There is nothing wrong to love your homeland, where you grew up as child.

Selfish xenophobia and racism come into the picture when people from Third World want to experience the rich nature and high standard of living that western countries have, but the westerners, already born with a silver spoon in their mouth, want to keep it all to themselves and try to keep Third World migrants out with all possible means, including barb wire and armed guards on the borders. That is another form of Capitalist thinking, selfish refusal to share the resources equally with everyone.

We all know what the main point is, on both sides of the barb wire: money, standard of living. Third World migrants are looking for a better life, and westerners are afraid of their salaries and standard of living declining when masses of lowest class citizens flood the labour market. Money is the point, it all comes to Capitalistic motives.

[Paula Marx]

We all know what the main point is, on both sides of the barb wire: money, standard of living. Third World migrants are looking for a better life, and westerners are afraid of their salaries and standard of living declining when masses of lowest class citizens flood the labour market. Money is the point, it all comes to Capitalistic motives.

I know that, what is true, but I think the main problem of racism is indoctrination and rulers who promote hate. Masses are not completely educated so they can't do anything but believe what others tell to them.
Our aim is surely not to copy imperialists, but maybe we can learn something from our enemies. Not about the state organization and stuff, because that doesn't work, but when it comes to propaganda and those things. Whole Internet is flooded with their slogans, phrases and manipulative systems. How can all the world dream about America, McDonald's and Coke?

[canady21]

Hi,



I have read extensively on the national question in order to clarify my questions, including reading the entire polemic between Luxembourg and Lenin, to no avail. I still don't know where I stand on the national question, all I have learned is that it is very nuanced and that socialism is the only answer!




Apartment | Ottawa Apartments

[charlieJ25]

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[amariCarAcero]

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