@nti-dialectics Made Easy

[Brian the Bold]

RS oh yes start a different thread if you want. Call it

Now I have completely demolished Dialectical Materialism this is how I am going to build the revolutionary movement

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

BTB:

RS oh yes start a different thread if you want. Call it

Now I have completely demolished Dialectical Materialism this is how I am going to build the revolutionary movement

May I refer the honourable, short-sighted, annoying parrot to my earlier reply.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

BTB:

Can you elaborate on this please?

No.
 
 

[Brendan]

Frankly Rosa, I enjoy your essays.  They're closely reasoned and well-argued.

But if you can't, or won't expand on those arguments in discussion, then your ideas will be worth nothing more than the bandwidth it costs you to post them on a website.

[Brian the Bold]

Frankly Rosa, I enjoy your essays.  They're closely reasoned and well-argued.

But if you can't, or won't expand on those arguments in discussion, then your ideas will be worth nothing more than the bandwidth it costs you to post them on a website.

I enjoy her essays as well. They make a great deal of sense. Pity she is not going to build anything with that attitude. Having a go at potential supporters, tut, tut......

[Volkov]

BTB:

Can you elaborate on this please?

No.

And this is how this anti-dialectical movement is to be put into action, then?  By evasiveness and trolling?  Lenin and Trotsky clearly worked things out.  They did not just say "We demolished it!" and turned people to some website.

Rosa, any basis of support you have had has pretty much eroded away to such behavior.  Even the ultra-lefts at revleft.com are sick of this behavior, for the most part.  Probably not the best way to get ideas out there.  Your stuff seems to be getting reduced to mere spam.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Axel/Volkov:

And this is how this anti-dialectical movement is to be put into action, then?  By evasiveness and trolling?  Lenin and Trotsky clearly worked things out.  They did not just say "We demolished it!" and turned people to some website.

And what 'anti-dialectical movement' is that?

Now, I agree: Lenin and Trotsky worked out excellent strategies based on historical materialism; where they screwed up was over dialectics.

No science is beyond revision, and there is no science that has not cast off its mystical roots.

The same needs to happen with dialetics.

Rosa, any basis of support you have had has pretty much eroded away to such behavior.  Even the ultra-lefts at revleft.com are sick of this behavior, for the most part.  Probably not the best way to get ideas out there.  Your stuff seems to be getting reduced to mere spam.

Galileo wasn't popular either.

If you think I want to be 'popular' you are sadly mistaken.

Being right is quite enough.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Brendan:

But if you can't, or won't expand on those arguments in discussion, then your ideas will be worth nothing more than the bandwidth it costs you to post them on a website.

I am sorry if you have inferred the wrong things from the above, Brendan, but I refuse to be distracted and then deflected away from my demolition of the theory that has presided over 150 years of almost total failure -- dialectical materialism.

Just like a doctor faced with a life-threatening bacterial infection in a patient, it is no use speculating about what to do in the convalescent period until the infection is totally removed. Same with dialectics.

Now, whether or not I have ideas that will help take the struggle forward is not my immediate concern. Where I can contribute is precisely here: the destruction of the theory that has contributed to our long-term lack of success.

Hence, 100% of my efforts are diredted there, and nowhere else.

If any of you do not like this, quite frankly, although I am symnpathetic to your impatience, that is no concern of mine -- I will not change.

You are all beating your heads against a brick wall here. And if that makes me 'unpopular', so be it.

However, since I agree 100% with historical materialism, I'd probably agree with much that this wing of Trotskyism had to say on the isssue that concerns BTB, anyway.

So, if none of you are capable of defending dialectics -- or even want to --, stop posting irrelevant comments in a thread that is about dialectics.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

BTB:

Pity she is not going to build anything with that attitude. Having a go at potential supporters, tut, tut......

Once more, may I apologise to you if you think I have 'had a go' at you, but you asked for it by not taking heed of what I had to say.

My response to you is also contained in my reply to Brendan above.

Finally, I am not seeking 'supporters'. I am quite capable of trashing dialectics all on my own.

[Brian the Bold]

BTB:

Pity she is not going to build anything with that attitude. Having a go at potential supporters, tut, tut......

Once more, may I apologise to you if you think I have 'had a go' at you, but you asked for it by not taking heed of what I had to say.

My response to you is also contained in my reply to Brendan above.

Finally, I am not seeking 'supporters'. I am quite capable of trashing dialectics all on my own.

RS

How do you measure your success at turning people from DM?

So, if none of you are capable of defending dialectics -- or even want to --, stop posting irrelevant comments in a thread that is about dialectics.

It is relevant to ask this question.

[Brian the Bold]

RS

Galileo wasn't popular either.

If you think I want to be 'popular' you are sadly mistaken.

Being right is quite enough.

Surely it depends on who is listening. A few 'internet nerds/keyboard class warriors' such as us dont really count as a mass audience.

Your theory hasnt been taken up and subjected to criticism by the main marxist groups.I havent seen an answer to your essays published  online or hardcopy
 (I dont count the cpgb in this. They are about as relevant to the working class as moon dust.)

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

BTB:

How do you measure your success at turning people from DM?

I do not, since I am, not an idealist.

The reason for my saying that can be worked out from an earlier post.

It is relevant to ask this question.

Ask away -- just don't expect an answer.

And I have yet to see you explain its relevance.

Surely it depends on who is listening. A few 'internet nerds/keyboard class warriors' such as us dont really count as a mass audience.

I did not begin this project (in July 1998) with a mind to publishing it on the internet. I was aiming to have it published in hard copy (privately, if I could not find a publisher) in and around 2118.

But, about two and a half years ago, a couple of comrades persuaded me to get my work into the public domain as soon as possible, on the internet (even though it's only half-complete). So that is what I have been doing.

Now, I do not expect a single fan of the dialectic to be won over by my arguments, since they hold on to this theory for emotional reasons I went into earlier. My aim is to prevent younger comrades catching this virus of the mind.

In that, I have not done too bad. I get e-mails from comrades across the panet who thank me for my stance. Not one has asked me the question around which you have perserverated these last few days.

The main site has had 20,000 or more hits in the meantime, and the introductory page over 10,000.

Not a massive amount, in view of the fact that some sites get this many in a day -- but far more that I would have expected if I had published it in hard copy.

In addition, this has prompted me to go on to as many forums as I can find to push my ideas. As a result of that, I have now got a reputation around the world with fans of the dialectic that makes me almost their number one enemy. So much so that many will not even look upon my work, and warn others not to (Axel/Volkov being the resident prophet here in that regard -- a sort of Trotskyist equivalent of the Roman Catholic Index of Forbidden Ideas, and prompted by somewhat similar motives -- to defend dogma).

[I had also hoped that dialecticians would engage fairly with me (Ha!), and criticise my ideas so that I could improve them. Oddly enough, out of the many 100s of comrades I have debated this with, only a handful were prepeared to do this, two of whom post at this site. (In fact, I got a better reception from Maoists than from fellow Trotskyists!)]

So, I have no illusions -- I may be able to win every single argument in which I am engaged, but I stand zero chance of persuading dialecticians in general to give up their opiate.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

By the way, you can find the latest emotional, and irrational response to me at this Venezuelan site (in English):

http://aporrealos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=141373#141373

[Brian the Bold]

RS

And I have yet to see you explain its relevance.

I judge a marxist activist on the basis that they walk the walk as well as talk the talk. So far all I have seen is talk.

Thats why I believe the relevance of me asking the questions of you is to see how you have put your ideas into practice.Where is the action and why the anonymity. All I know is that you write extensively on internet discussion forums and claim you are a shop steward. I dont even know for what union.

That might be unimportant or irrelevent to you but I believe it is how most workers judge activists. You may find this surprising but 99.9% of workers do not discuss philosophy,anti philosophy, dialectics or anti dialectics in the workplace. They look towards improving their wages and conditions and fight to defend long term benefits.

All the DM fans as you put it, have to be judged on their activity and political strategy.You know 150 years and all that.

 So should you be.

I notice you very rarely post on other political questions.

For example where is your analysis of Venezuela, the crisis in workers political representation in the UK and Europe and the economy using your materialism with the dialectics taken out?

You are right, this section isnt the right place to discuss it but that shouldnt stop you contributing elsewhere on the board. After all you are a Marxist.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

BTB:

I judge a marxist activist on the basis that they walk the walk as well as talk the talk. So far all I have seen is talk.

Fine. But, what do I care what you think?

All the DM fans as you put it, have to be judged on their activity and political strategy.You know 150 years and all that.

Great record!

All four internationals have gone down the pan (and the fifth has already split), the 1917 revolution has been reversed. Practically every former 'socialist' state has abandoned Marxism. Trotskyism is riven top to bottom with splits -- check out the number of parties worldwide, all with the correct 'dialectical' line:

http://www.broadleft.org/trotskyi.htm

Even Ted Grant's former comrades booted him out (albeit on trumped up charges -- but this is the only thing us Trots do well: split and expel).

If this is the sort of 'practice' you prefer, you are welcome to it.

I notice you very rarely post on other political questions.

For example where is your analysis of Venezuela, the crisis in workers political representation in the UK and Europe and the economy using your materialism with the dialectics taken out?

Nice try, but you will have to wait until I get round to re-modelling historical materialism before I begin tackling such topics.

If you can't wait -- well, tough...