Traditional organisations

[Irish Militant]

I have just read an article on the IDOM site from the editorial board of Der Funke, which calls for support for the new Left Alliance in Germany.

Is this not an attack on decades of work in the SPD? Does Der Funke now disagree with the idea that the working class will inevitably flow through its traditional organisations?

[ckaihatsu]

http://www.marxist.com/Europe/germany-early-elections150705.htm

The Marxist position

In this election campaign, the Marxists will give critical support to the Left Alliance and put forward slogans against the bourgeois parties and for a left majority in the Bundestag on a socialist programme. The emergence of a strong left opposition in the coming Bundestag will be a step forward for the movement. Yet we must not give the shortsighted reformist leaders and would-be careerists of that alliance a blank cheque. We shall use the election period and the coming months to hammer home the need to link all the concrete left demands to the question of which class holds power in society. With the enormous level of state indebtedness and given the recent shift of wealth to the benefit of the upper 10 per cent even a tame reformist programme cannot be realised within the constraints of capitalism.

We shall fight for a class approach within the Left Alliance and for the future left MPs to live on the average wage of skilled workers. Once elected as a new parliamentary party, the Left Alliance must resist all temptations to become a junior partner of a post-Schröder-SPD in the medium term but rather seek to win over the SPD and union rank and file to a programme of radical socialist transformation of society.

[Irish Militant]

Yes that's the article above.

My question remains however. Is Der Funke not throwing away decades of work in the SPD by siding with this new left alliance against the traditional organisation of the German working class? This after all is the attitude of Socialist Appeal towards every other attempt to create a new left party in opposition to the existing social democray.

[nordicmarxist]

I think Irish militant ask an intersting question because its obvious that it is a diffrent aproach than Socialist appeal.

What i now is that Der Funke changed their orientation towards PDS. I dont know if this was the correct thing to do.

But there is a big diffrence if you compare Great Brittain and Germany and that is that PDS attracts quite a lot of people especially in the east.

In GB the left outside Labourparty doesnt attract many people.

In Germany as well i the new left party is a interesting place because it attracts a lot of people of left wing people from trade unions and youth.

But i think you have to look at the situation in every countries marxists are looking to find a way to spread the ideas of marxism but then you have to find people which are interested and where it is possibel to do something so i think a flexibel tactic is justified.

[Frederik]

I must say I was a bit surprised when I read the article. I have always thought that it was correct to orientate towards the SPD - the tradtitional mass organisation in (Western) Germany. It is different in the East, where the left reformist PDS holds this position.

Before I say anything, I want to say that I have not discussed this issue with either the German comrades, nor representatives from the International. Therefore, I don't have anything close to a full insight in the situation.

It is clear that there are great posibilities in the Left Alliance. The emergence of this small gruop of leftist trade-unionists shows that big layers of the class are seeking for a way out of the crisis and the impasse of German capitalism.

Nevertheless, it seems odd to me to give critical support to the Left Alliance - WITHOUT a critical support for the SPD as well - not to speak of a slogan of a united front between the two parties of the working class, on the basis of a socialist programme for improvement of the living standards for the workers, a stop for privatisation, nationalisation of all industries threatened by outsourcing and high taxes on the capitalists.

I am looking forward to discuss this issue with German comrades.
Is there an on-line version of German perspectives?

Comradely,
Frederik

[Irish Militant]

I'm sure that there are big opportunities in the new left formation Frederick, but as I understand it abandoning the SPD for it contradicts the basic stance of Socialist Appeal and its entire international towards the traditional organisations of the working class. Or is the theoretical view that workers will move through their traditional organisations now to be abandoned whenever there are bigger opportunities elsewhere? The article above represents a fairly comprehensive parting from all of the work previously carried out by Der Funke in the SPD.

[proletarianrevo]

I had the same reaction as Frederik when I saw this material, and tend to think that he points out some very correct things, especially this: why is there no slogan for a workers government on a socialist programme (with transiotional demands)? This is, as I see it, a weakness in the article.

I have no doubt that orientating towards the PDS was - and still remains - correct, if it means trying to find a way to the best layers in a situation where the class has not moved decisively yet, while remaining an agitational approach towards the SPD and calling for a united SPD-WASG-PDS government on a socialist programme.

At the same time we must remember that, as Nordicmarxist so correctly pointed out, there are national pecularities. The things do not change in a pre-arranged scheme. I think that comrades must remember that in Italy, in the beginning of the 90s there was a big rumble on the left resulting also in a split where a RATHER BIG LAYER of the vanguard of the CP (which has always been the traditional org. in Italy) went out to form the PRC (Rifundazione). In Italy I know that our comrades now work and orientate towards the PRC, but at the same time they still characterise the Left Party (the old CP) as a workers´ party and call for a workers´ government.
Maybe it is not ruled out that the WASG could obtain a status in the eyes of the advanced workers similar to the one held by the PRC in Italy.... What do all of you think?

[proletarianrevo]

To thoose who read german, I would recommend you to have a look at the german perspectives from 2004:
http://www.derfunke.de/broschueren/dp2004/index.html

When I read it my self I will post my comments, but I am not very good at german so it will probably be quite a daunting task...

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

Historically, the German SDP and the CP have both been huge.I think we have to remember this in this discussion.The consciousness of the German working class has also many lessons hammered home through experience in the class struggle.
So to me it is no surprise that the advanced layers of the class orientate around this new tendency.
I think it would be a mistake to rule out more massive splits in the SDP as events develop.
I think it would also be a great mistake to compare this situation to , say, the UK where moves to form a 'new workers party' have ground to an embarrasing halt.

[Daymare17]

I think a main factor is the UK electoral system which basically excludes any second workers' party. Other European countries don't have this restriction.

[P.O.U.M]

I think a main factor is the UK electoral system which basically excludes any second workers' party. Other European countries don't have this restriction.

Im trying to get more involved in European politics. I know in America the two party system reigns supreme. But what is the two party system in the UK, the Labor Party and the Tories? Those are the two parties I know from the UK. Is the rest of Europe different?

Forgive me for being an ignorant American, but our propoganda system here is quite effective.

[P.O.U.M]

Well, after rereading the qoute I used, I feel like an idiot. I just saw "second workers party."

Still I myself find it rather odd that Der Funke is going this way. There are enough sectarian US groups which give shit towards Socialist Appeal for orrientating towards the traditional organizations. And now, the comrades in Germany are doing otherwise. It is a change in tactics. But I myself would not know the situation in Germany, only those in Germany would know it best. And Im sure there was enough discussion and debate about this issue, especially since it was a major change in European tatics. Since Europe has a wealth of traditional workers organizations unlike the US which we have the Democrats which have union support but are by far no where near a workers party even in talk.

Does anyone think this is a negative move? Or is there a comrade from Germany who particpated in the discussions as how to orientate towards the working class and thought that the Left Alliance was the prime choice for Marxists?

[Daymare17]

Okay, I have no idea about the deliberations of the German comrades, but I'm sure the change in orientation, if it's real and not just our misinterpretation, has been debated up and down. I'd just like to correct some factual errors in the presentation of our CWI comrade here.

as I understand it abandoning the SPD for [the WASG] contradicts the basic stance of Socialist Appeal and its entire international towards the traditional organisations of the working class. Or is the theoretical view that workers will move through their traditional organisations now to be abandoned whenever there are bigger opportunities elsewhere?

Irish Militant presents our position as entirely dogmatic, which is wrong and a bit silly. It is true that how the working masses move, i.e. in the first place through their old mass organisations, has played a large role in our propaganda and may seem superficially to define us as a tendency. But the whole point of this approach is to ward off any movements of the vanguard before the movement of the mass. When the mass begins to move, finds its organizations useless, and catastrophically replaces them with fresh, more useful ones, then who are we to remain behind the movement of the mass? Only idiots would do that and idiots we are not. Our task is to gain the leadership of the mass through foresight and resolution.

It is in no case the first time a CMI branch has disaffiliated from the "traditional organization" in its country. As Andreas pointed out, the CMI followed the most advanced Italian workers into the PRC in the early 90s. Today this tactic is obviously paying off as our comrades are turning into the recognised left-wing of the party (http://www.marxist.com/Europe/prc_congresprep04.htm). The Venezuelan CVT (the old, corrupt trade-union) was the "traditional organization" of the Venezuelan working class until the revolution. Today it has been all but wiped out by the revolutionary workers, who have organised in the UNT (the new, pro-Bolivarian trade union - but you probably knew that already, since your organization surely keeps you updated about these things :D).

It said in the article that the new formation can become the third-largest party gaining 10%. If there was a left split from UK Labour, and the split-off could gain 10% of the vote, do you think it would be "breaking with the principle" if Socialist Appeal left the Labour Party and joined the new formation? Whether SA would actually do it or not, is open for debate, but do you think they would be breaking with their principle if they did?

Comradely,
Rune

[Irish Militant]

I am well aware that the Woods group joined the PRC in Italy, although it is worth noting that it at first denounced the PRC and stayed with the DS as the supposed "traditional organisation". FalceMartello only swapped parties when reality rose up and slapped it repeatedly in the face, and even then did so on an untheorised and empirical basis. Not a lot of "foresight and resolution" there, was there? By the way, FM is only a very small part of the left of the PRC despite the misleading trumpetting on the IDOM website.

As for Germany, I'd like to get this clear. Are you arguing that the "mass" find the Social Democrats "useless" and now "catastrophically replaces them"? That the working class will not now seek to reclaim the Social Democrats and move through that organisation in their struggles?

[Daymare17]

Originally posted by Irish Militant
I am well aware that the Woods group joined the PRC in Italy, although it is worth noting that it at first denounced the PRC and stayed with the DS as the supposed "traditional organisation". FalceMartello only swapped parties when reality rose up and slapped it repeatedly in the face, and even then did so on an untheorised and empirical basis. Not a lot of "foresight and resolution" there, was there? By the way, FM is only a very small part of the left of the PRC despite the misleading trumpetting on the IDOM website.

I don't know enough about the subject matter to argue with this position. However it has nothing to do with the original topic, which was "the idea that the working class will inevitably flow through its traditional organisations". Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me if your argument is one of the innumerable defensive distortions of the CWI.

As for Germany, I'd like to get this clear. Are you arguing that the "mass" find the Social Democrats "useless" and now "catastrophically replaces them"? That the working class will not now seek to reclaim the Social Democrats and move through that organisation in their struggles?

I am not saying that the whole mass of the German working class has lost faith in the SPD overnight. The closest thing to such a rapid break was the buildup of the UNT, which still took place in stages over several months. However, 10% of the electorate clearly counts as an inroad into the mass of the working class, and, moreover, obviously into the most radical section. It would be half to one third of the SPD vote. At any rate it is more than a few tens of thousands, which has been the tally for the UK Socialist Party in its various electoral setups. I find it almost parodical that the CWI left the social democracy, arguing that the masses were "breaking with their traditional organizations" when the exact opposite was happening, and now that they actually are doing it in several countries (not the UK though), you are skeptical. Parodical, but predictable. It happens to every tendency that loses the sense of historical rhythm.

Comradely,
Rune