IMPORTANT!! ERROR: Lack of Organization

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

Hi Paul. Bit worried about the EU bit. Care to elaborate?
I dont think youre rambling. Ultimately we all want a Communist Party , but the question arises how are we to achieve this?
We have to go through the experience that the w/c go through;which is ,the LP. I know ,I hate it as much as you probably but its the way we go.
Its a bit like starting from the beginning really, the trade unions are the key.Also the new layers of workers coming into the unions.Think about this; if I want to get rid of my local MP
how do I do it ? He is a Blairite who voted against the war in Iraq(???) name of Denham.Do we stand against him outside the LP and get miniscule votes? Or do we stand and campaign against him inside the LP? You choose ....I know what I would do.
By the way , down in Southampton we put this question to the FBU members we knew.... they all said its best to fight from within .
Its hard work , but then again fighting for Marxim has never been easy.
Keep the faith ,Paul....Ian

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

Hey paul ,I forgot,what were the " mass expulsions" from the LP? I thought only about 300 odd people were kicked out ,hardly mass!!!
Ian

[Paul Smith]

OK for the European Union.



Most left organisations have taken the stance of 'no to Europe'.

However taking the same approach as our lovely little-Englanders/nationalists/Tories (if they think it can get them some support) etc, I can't stomach personally.

Why does the left seem so bent on being on the side of the hard reactionary right?

Or they're doing with their anti-EU mumbo jumbo is playing into the hands of those hard reactionaries on the right-wing.

They may well spout out 'no to the bosses Europe' but what do they suggest instead?  'A workers' Europe', well obviously but who do we go about that!?  Inside the EU or outside!?  Inside!!!

The left needs to work on challenging the 'bosses Europe' not just ignoring it, and saying no! (it's too late for that).  Why do you think the EU is such a state, (lack of democracy etc), because everyone is trying to ignore it, instead of actively fighting the bureaucratic habits from within a pro-EU position.

The people on the left who wish to pull the UK out of the EU because it's a club of capitalists, are out of their minds!  What next, pull the working class out of the UK, because it's capitalist and undemocratic!

We don't run away from the bourgeoisie, and start up 'communism' somewhere else, we overthrow them, that means replacing the bureaucrats at the top of the EU with our representatives, not closing our eyes, and covering our ears and just repeating no-EU over and over.

What is the position of the proletariat in regard to progressive things as the bourgeoisie smashing feudalism, and religious dominance (in Europe at least), these were progressive, and the proletariat understand that.  Yet sections of the bourgeoisie unifying Europe, destroying the old nation-states, which IS progressive, some of us seem to have a problem with.

If Marxists were around back in the 1600-1700s would we of opposed the bourgeoisie destroying old feudalistic nonsense, no we would of gone down the same path, only attacking the bourgeoisie along the way.

We go down the some road as the bourgeoisie with unifying Europe, all the way striking at them.  Not running the other way with our tails between our legs!

I hope that clears up my position regarding the European Union (cough European Federative Socialist Republic).



The matter of entrism has been lulling around in my head for the best part of a year.  I still cannot make up my mind on it.

I'm taking it you've been in politics much longer then I have (I'm 20), generally been involved with various organisations since about 15.  Although I haven't settled into one, as I seem to have disagreements with pretty much all of them!  I find myself generally promoting Marxism (which I think has to be done since there are far too few of us), rather then jumping on one organisations current campaign or whatever.

Obviously the Labour Party is a workers' party with lots of workers' to keep myself busy promoting too.  Which fits in with Marxist promotion, while isolated fronts are distant from the masses, that's true.

I have a few minor points with SocApp, I don't consider myself a Trotskyist, yes I agree with Trotskyism, but I'm a Marxist, plain and simple (is there such a thing as Trotskyism? hmm an interesting question).  Yes these are minor, but minor things bother me enormously :D The name 'Trotsky' does alienate a lot of communists, because of all the anti-Trotsky dribble they've heard, even anti-Stalinists, Leninists manage to blast Trotsky for some reason or another.

I've had a lot of dealings with several youth organisations in Russia recently, and you can just feel the hatred towards the name 'Trotsky' even though they're practically along the same policies.  Again relatively minor, but it's still there.

Oh while on the topic of Russia, what's Workers' Democracy up to?  They operating on the basis of kicking Zyganov and friends out of the CPRF?  Anyone?

Ian, of course it's hard work, if it was easy it would of happened by now!

Oh and I don't seem to recall mentioning the "mass expulsions" in the 1980s?  Sure that was me? :confused:

Comradely
Paul A. Smith
Yeovil, UK.

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

Paul...re mass expulsions!!! you got me there!! I must be thinking of another conversation. Its my age I suppose;-)
I do see you have a good point about EU. I also tend to distance myself with the other lefts who advocate withdraw/non-participation with EU.Maybe it might be worth developing this arguement on this site considering there might be the prospect of a referendum coming up.
For a Socialist United States of Europe.
Ian

[proletarianrevo]

Comrade Paul
I really cant help interrupting in your discussion.
I think that you treats this subject a little too easy.

Sure a lot of fucked up tendencies play tricks with the nationalist slogans on the EU question. Here in Denmark we still have some stalinists remendments, who really are crazy. For example, during the election over the referendum, they hided themselves in 'the broad movement' and called for the defence of 'national sovereignity'. In the 'broad movement', they argued that Denmark should just withdraw from the EU.

When they discussed this question with other people on the leftwing, they just said that 'it was ok to go in the popular front' and that a no to the EU, automatically would be 'a step towards socialism' (sic!).

Of course this is crazy stalinist nonsense. But this does not mean that we should not say NO to the EU in referendum-elections in Denmark, or Ireland.
But our 'NO' is not a no to internationalism and for 'national sovereignity'.
Our NO is NO to the bosses EU, a no to a capitalist union lead by the bureaucrats, the capitalist (european round table, etc.), and so on.

We have to put this question in to its right proportion:
A 'NO' is not automatically a step forward. If for example, a big wave of nationalism hits the masses and the rightwingers leads the movement against the EU, then it is certaintly not progressive.

But a NO is a sign of hostility towards the ruling class, it is an indication that the masses are not satisfied with the sick capitalist society!

We have to discuss the question in th TUs and in the workers movement. in this way we can connect the anger towards the hated system, to a class position.
Our slogan must be: No to bosses EU, yes to socialist planned Europe run by workers and youth.
Also we have to tell the truth to the mass of workers: A withdrawal from the EU, is NOT any solution whatsoever. The countries outside the EU will still be bound to the international laws of trade and of capitalist economi.
The only solution is to break with capitalism on a world scale.


Comradely
Andreas

PS. concerning the mass organisation, I totally agree that at some stage the masses will move through their traditional organizations. Just have a look on history!!!
I dont know much about Labour, but here in DK the traditional organization, is still the socialdemocracy, although in recent times the right reformists really have a strong hold on the movement.
But they are still closely connected with the unions (although some union-bureaucrats want to cut the connection).

[Paul Smith]

The trouble with people who say no to the bosses Europe, is they propose no realistic alternative to unite Europe.

They in effect, would be striking the progressive elements of the bourgeoisie who are trying to do this, rather then attacking the more reactionary elements of the ruling class.

Are the proletariat in any position to unite Europe completely seperately at the moment?  No.  Let's bare this in mind.  We must be realistic in our stratagy.

Our slogan should be more along the lines of YES to the European Union, NO to the bourgeoisie.  Rather then the completely negative of no to the bosses EU.  A slogan that still in my opinion aids the hard-reactionary wing (after all lack of democracy is one of their key arguments, so we'd again be sounding like them).

I'm not attacking your position just moaning about slogans :p

Completely correct about quitting the EU, isolated and an economic collapse would happen (although from this perspective economic collapse in the UK would assist us, being isolated would risk the revolution being isolated).

As for the Stalinists they have completely embraced capitalism with open arms, what do you expect? :)

A 'No to the EU' would be about 100 steps back from socialism.

Comradely
Paul A. Smith
Yeovil, UK.

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

I agree with both your positions. In the UK though we have to cut across an isolationist/nationalist position that does find an echo amongst some workers.The difficulty is putting over the internationalist position.The LP leadership is lacking in this department.
As far  as a capitalist united europe being progressive is concerned, from where Im standing there seems to be two tendencies. Manufacturing capital who are pro europe and finance capital who are against.Do you agree?
Ian

[Universal]

I think what he means is that Marxists are spread out a distance and never really meet each other other than in ineffective minority groups in most country's (US) and the disorganization in a reality wold rather than the internet lifestyle we all have here.