IMPORTANT!! ERROR: Lack of Organization

[Volkov]

I have noticed that Marxists overall are unorganized, and that makes it difficult to find and communicate with other ones.  I suggest that we contact other Marxist sites and try to organize into a series of partner sites to make it easier to discuss things with other Marxists.

[marx_was_right]

Anyone can access this website and forum though, most sites are organisation websites. YFIS is an international Marxist organisation with sections in almost every country on earth, Id say that was pretty organised.

[tidybutt]

Hmmm.... Its a question of finding Marxists who have a grip on reality, finding those worth working with.... There are all manner of "mxts" out there, many of whom lost their way long time ago...

(c.f. thread "A question.....")

The key for Marxists is finding the road to the workers and the youth.  How to earn the respect of that class which is decisive in the struggle for socialism.  To walk with them, sharing experiences with them, aim to show a way forward, assist in their everyday struggles, in order to win reforms from the bourgeios in the short term, whilst linking the everyday demands to the need to change society.

By the way I'm a member of the cwi. Just so you know....

[Volkov]

Originally posted by igor
Anyone can access this website and forum though, most sites are organisation websites. YFIS is an international Marxist organisation with sections in almost every country on earth, Id say that was pretty organised.

But, shouldn't we try to get multiple Marxist websites into an organized manner?  This board, sadly, is not too active, and I have yet to see another Marxist in person.  I feel that Marxists must also organize somewhat in person as well;  I have yet to see another Marxist in person.  All Marxists need to unite so they can communicate with others more easily and gain more support.    

Uh, tidybutt, I am not too familiar with all abbreviated organizations, so, what is the CWI?

[styrken]

Hi Volkov

Im sure, that somebody on this board, can help you meet marxists face to face, not far away from you.

So, where du you live?

Comradely, Michael

[tidybutt]

Volkov, fyi:

The CWI is the Committee for a Workers International, the international marxist organisation to which the Socialist Party (England and Wales) is affilliated.  It has affilliated organisations in 37 countries and all continents.  It is the organisation from which the Socialist Appeal group, the WIL, sprung from in 1992, after a sharp and quite stormy debate.  I dropped out of the British Section in 1992, returning in 2001, after much consideration to both tendencies.  As I said before, I still have respect for our ex comrades, even though (with the benefit of 10 years hindsight), I still disagree with them....

I hope this clears things.

For your reference, the website of the cwi is herewww.worldsocialist-cwi.org

[styrken]

I think the CWI in practical, work at the same way as the SWP-tendencie?

Theoretical you are closer on us, than SWP, but i cant see the different i practical?

Comradely, Michael

[Volkov]

Originally posted by styrken
Hi Volkov

Im sure, that somebody on this board, can help you meet marxists face to face, not far away from you.

So, where du you live?

Comradely, Michael

I live in the US state of Minnesota, Comrade.

Quote by Comrade Tidybutt:

Volkov, fyi:

The CWI is the Committee for a Workers International, the international marxist organisation to which the Socialist Party (England and Wales) is affilliated. It has affilliated organisations in 37 countries and all continents. It is the organisation from which the Socialist Appeal group, the WIL, sprung from in 1992, after a sharp and quite stormy debate. I dropped out of the British Section in 1992, returning in 2001, after much consideration to both tendencies. As I said before, I still have respect for our ex comrades, even though (with the benefit of 10 years hindsight), I still disagree with them....

I hope this clears things.

For your reference, the website of the cwi is herewww.worldsocialist-cwi.org

Okay, thanks, Comrade.  That helps clear things up.:)

[tidybutt]

Comrade Michael, there is a gulf of difference.  I assume that you mean that in practice the CWI and the SWP both stand outside of the Labour Party, an ex workers party. This much is true.  The similarity stops there, I'm afraid.  Please flesh out your question.

comradely

tidybutt

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

Dear Tidybutt. The LP is a workers party with a pro-capitalist leadership.Why is this not obvious to you? At the moment it is empty of workers.
I agree that marxism has to be connected to the day to day experience of the proleteriat ; if they dont vote labour because they feel let down by the LP...they just dont bother to turn out thus the low turnouts. It is important therefore that we connect with workers in the TUs ; you must agree there is a shift to the left in the TUs. Eventually this will be expressed politically, in this case in the LP- because the LP is still based on the TUs!!
This seems to be so difficult for the SP , SWP etc,etc to understand.
Why dont the SP and the SA get good votes at election time?
I would like an explanation please.
By the way , I was a member of the CWI 1992/1997.
comradely Ian

[tidybutt]

The LP is a workers party with a pro-capitalist leadership

This was true in the past, and for marxists, during the 50s 60s 70s 80s it was entirely correct to undertake entrist work in it.  Following the mass expulsions of the 80s, and even the rightward lurch of the leadership, the acceptance of ex liberals, tories etc into membership, orientation towards not only businessmen, but the upper reaches of big biz, corporate sponsors, the gradual abandonment of the LP by the activists who got the LP elected twice, those angry at the war in iraq, firefighters ripping up party cards in disgust, does it necessarily follow that the LP is beyond reclamation??
The definitive turning point for the LP i think was the fall of the soviet union, and the resultant out and out embrace of capitalism and the market by not onlly the leadership but many on the "soft left".  The resultant consoliudation ofd its position has deepened the rift between the ideology of New Labour and the reality of Cap. in crisis.

Eventually this will be expressed politically, in this case in the LP- because the LP is still based on the TUs!!

To some extent you are right, there would be some reflection in the LP of the new turn in trhe mood.  Will the most advanced workers orientate towards the LP? Will they be a catalyst for the working class to enter the LP on a mass basis and transform it into, or back into, a mass workers party? I dont think so.
It is a generation ago, that the LP had a mass base, mass support at elections, it was in the psyche of the working class. There is no way that a new generation of youth and activists would automatically orientate to the LP.  In the same way that your  American section campaigns for an independent party of labor, we raise the correct demand in UK, For a new mass party of the working class, based on the TUs, independent of the three pro capitalist parties, and big biz.

Why dont the SP and the SA get good votes at election time?

I think both the SP and SWP have both had a vote reflecting the changing mood.  Both are small parties, there is a vacuum on the left, which cannot be filled by these parties.  "Nature abhors a vacuum".  The lack of a mass alternative leaves the door open for the far right populists, and the neo- fascist BNP, to gain an echo, basing itself on the worst fears of a section of workers.  
The work our cdes have done in the council elections has been of a sterling quality.  There is an eagerness to discuss on the doorstep.  Nobody else is doing it.  It shows the potential for a new mass party.  In contrast I beleive you have had councillors, in Southampton maybe, who have had to hide their ideas.  Entrism is a tactic, a means to an end.  The LP may be desperate for members to pound the pavements and stand in elections etcx. but they are not that desperate.  I'll never forget a  LP GMC meeting in 1989, in which within minutes of each other, a
libdem councillor was accepted into membership without a batted eyelid, and moved to expel a long standing LP member, a Militant comrade.

regards

(

[Paul Smith]

I would like to the Socialist Party, and the SWP and other supporters of the Socialist Alliance to merge.  

The SWP will of course be opposed to this as they are the 'top sect' at the moment, and let's be honest their leadership, doesn't like the notion of sharing 'power' if command over the 2000 or so active SWP members is any form of power.

Generally the policies of all of these groups are pretty much the same.  Nothing major that I would say can't be worked around.

As I've said many times I believe in a revolutionary party, with a wing operating within the Labour Party.  This revolutionary party will attempt to push the Labour Party around, will only stand in elections when Labour are clearly on one of their rightward thrusts.  They won't oppose Labour for no reason, the programme of Labour should be pretty much spot on with our basic win support with the workers (good-bourgeois-be-nice-to-worker-or-else) policies.  Which is where Labour will hopefully start to drift, the Blairite faction have lost some grip.

I don't believe having a revolutionary party, and a faction within the Labour Party is some how contradictory.

Labour becoming the party of revolution I don't believe is possible, without almost destroying the party (i.e. kicking the reformists/Tories in their 10000s out).

To the young people (under 25s) etc Trade Unions and the Labour Party seem somewhat alien, something their parents may of been involved with.

This is a problem, obviously Socialist Appeal, have seen this and are doing a great job with the YFIS website etc, they're educating the readers, membership etc (lessons that all the organisations on the left need to do).  

The SWP shoving some anarchist on a sign with the words 'Fuck Capitalism!' isn't helping one bit!  When that anarchist can explain to me how it is possible for me to procreate with capitalism, he may get some of my attention.

Obviously for the moment it's one of education, education, education.  The masses are completely disillusioned with bourgeois-crap.  Removing this should be task number one.  The movement will unite more effectively when there are more then a few thousand people to unite.

Comradely
Paul Smith
Yeovil, UK.

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

It is difficult to see any gain s a party outside of the LP can get . I cant think of one example of a socialist party forming outside of the Labour movement. The case has always been this, they will simply be ignored by workers. There is a change happening I agree but I cant see this change (in the conscienceness of the proleteriat, I mean) being expressed in the small groups outside the LP.
You mention the FBU, there are examples of groups of workers ripping up there party cards before- I remember a few occasions during the 80s when this happened (miners strike/print dipute against Murdoch) so it is nothing new ,there are probably other examples going back in history but I think we should stick with it .
I believe the SA (socappeal) have always argued that at some stage militant workers will move THROUGH the LP .The LP itself has never been seen as an end in itself ie that it will  become a revolutionary organisation.It will be up to the advanced workers themseves to decide that.Paul ,, I think the key is here to go where the workers go ,and at the moment they are eithe voting for the LP or not at all (the majority in this case)
Paul for the record I think it was a mistake for Militant to split in the early 90s. We were the largest Trotskyist group in europe at the time certainly the most succesful(Liverpool, MPs etc)
Wher has it gone now?
Ian

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

Correction to 2nd sentence!! I cant think of one SUCCESSFUL example of a socialist party forming outside of the LP.
Sorry Ian

[Paul Smith]

Militant splitting was a huge mistake.

But then obviously 1990+ saw massive destruction brought upon the left of the whole world, the social-demos, reformists, even stalinists all drifting over to the policy of eternal-bourgeois rule.

The position of a 'Communist Party' (wow imagine something worthy of the name!) within the UK must be one of support of the Labour Party, support of Marxist elements within that Party.

But then to act as the revolutionary guide, when it is needed.  Obviously now it's not needed.  But I think it's important to have an external part in waiting (even if it's not publically active in campaigning on a front).  Although the SSP was quite successful.

If all these groups on the left, just charged into the Labour Party, you know an extra 5000 revolutionary members, might not sound much, but it would seriously put pressure on the Blairite faction.

Also attention I think must be given to the formation of a Communist Party of the EU.  In countries where "partyism" works for us let it operate like that, in the UK where we've had no such luck, concentrate on Labour.

An actual EU Party I believe would have more effect then that of a league/tendency etc, and give us a step above that of the national-parties organisationally.   As the EU develops it's own state, and the old nation states start to fade away, I think it would be very useful.

Anyway I'm just rambling now.

Comradely
Paul Smith.