Takeover of other forums

[anomaly]

I think that we, as an entire group of socialists, should begin to make our presence known. To do this, I propose that we find the largest 'normal' i.e. capitalist forum that exists on the internet and then all of us join the forum and express our socialist views. This way we can make politically aware people in the US aware that we socialists are not extinct-far from it. I ask one of you now to submit a large capitalist forum you know of and then we shall 'invade' it of sorts, and make our numbers known. As many of you have mentioned, the internet is a great place to inform people about socialism, but most forums on the internet are pro-capitalist and rather ignorant of socialist theory. I say it is time to use this vast tool to our benefit, it is time to educate the masses, and we can start on the internet. Who's with me?

[anomaly]

I ask again, does anyone have any thoughts on this idea? I think it could do wonders for our cause, and it could render the socialist stance one of strength.

[P.O.U.M]

Try the folks at revleft.com I thnk some would jump in. The problem though is you would gather a bunch of the Stalinist and Maoist crap. Which could undermine the whole idea of showing the superiority of socialism.

[redprophet]

I think that this particular action is foolish and probably will acomplish nothing.  We need to gain connections in the labor movment and youth.  We need financial stability.  We need to be seen at public events, meetings, rallies, etc.  Internet activism is not how to build a marxist party.  Real work, in the real, material world is what American marxists need to do.  Enough with internet posting and activism.  Socialism is built on the street and factory floor, not in chatrooms.

[Holocaustpulp]

anomaly, and all other interested: I have encountered a forum (before this one) on the internet at http://www.fullpolitics.com ; though the site is not strictly capitalist, it does have an abundance of libertarians, those of which I argue with often over the role of socialism in the world.

While socialist discussions on such forums are for the most part extrinsically futile, they bear ideological boosts in knowledge as well as clarifications among possible socialists. I encountered such small wins at another forum, and perhaps these victories can be more widespread...

- Holocaustpulp

[anomaly]

I think Holocaust here is more getting the idea. Redprophet, you must realize that now the internet is a very powerful tool, one that could be used for social change. I mean look at the advance of political blogs and the effect they now have on politics. Such a move would be 1. to show socialist strength, a symbolic gesture, if you will.   2. To perhaps gather new 'recruits' after we educate the capitalist masses. Such a move would not be foolish and I think it could accomplish many things (namely the two I just mentioned...). I have contacted our friends at revleft, and don't worry, I've already established my disgust of Stalinists, so I don't think any of them will bother discussing with me. The thing is, though, for this idea to have an impact, we need numbers. So any of you interested, wait for a while until we have numbers.

This is, for fellow high schoolers, perhaps the only way we can be active. A high schooler is often not very mobil, even during the summer since most of us are tied to work. I think this a great opportunity for us youth, but again we need numbers.

[P.O.U.M]

This is, for fellow high schoolers, perhaps the only way we can be active. A high schooler is often not very mobil, even during the summer since most of us are tied to work. I think this a great opportunity for us youth, but again we need numbers.

True, this is one the best ways for high schoolers to get involved. But debating on capitalist forum will get you know where. Much like debating with Stalinists and Maoists they will use anything to discredit you... Anything. If it makes sense or not, it will be used. It is better for high schooler to get involved in a forum already dedicated to socialism. Though it can be fun to test your knowledge. Which I have done.

Take the Trotskyist Labor League (TLL) for example. I know some of the comrades who have been on this board for awhile have dealt with them. There is even a thread about them in the US section called something like "Im laughing so hard my spleen comes out of nose." It was started by an english as a second language comrade so you have to excuse the incorrect grammer.

I had contact with TLL considering they were based not far from me at all. There whole base of contacts was of the internet. They had nothing but the internet. They used all sorts of means over the internet. But not one followed through. And eventually the TLL disbanded. The internet, although a great tool, does not mean you well always get good comrades. It is better to meet people in real life and discuss. Over the internet, though you might meet people who sympathize will not always work for the better world. That is the problem with the internet. You can always meet people who sympathize, but will not struggle and do the necessary work. And that is one of the reasons the TLL imploded.

Plus, Im sure most the people who go to "capitalist" forums are already stuck in their own respective views. You might win over a few liberals, but often times during a revolution liberals have tthis annoying nack for doing more harm to the revolution than the counter-revolutionaries. Any serious study of a revolution will show this.

**Intoxicated** Hope this makes sense

[redprophet]

I have some experience on "capitalist" forums.  The majority of the other posters despised me, and would go to any length to "disprove" some of my arguments.  If any comrades really want to test themselves in this manner, I reccomend they make sure they have a firm grasp of theory.

What the Marxist movement in the United States needs is not numbers, but dedicated comrades who are willing to do the actual work of building the organisation.  It is not possible to build an organisation solely over the internet.  P.O.U.M. is very correct in this.   And while the internet is a useful tool for gaining contacts, it must be emphasized that these contacts have to do something useful for the organisation.

[Holocaustpulp]

I agree with P.O.U.M and redprophet to the extent that any effective socialist organization cannot be based on the internet alone. However, I'd like to reiterate my claim that debating with capitalists makes one more knowledgeable and reassures socialist-leaning viewers (though there are usually few).

The most productive is through real people, though.

- HP

[Holocaustpulp]

*productive action*

[redprophet]

Debate is always useful and does indeed help in fortifying and solidifying one's views.  However, when debating with those of a capitalist persuasion, one must have a very firm grasp on theory.  They will try very hard to disorient you.  I reccomend that young activists focus on developing their ideas first, and then debating them with others.

[Holocaustpulp]

redprophet: while my ideas are solidified now, I have in the past staged debates where I was lacking in knowledge. However, I constantly reinforced my assertions with basic understandings with the help the works of Lenin and Marxists.org, among other things. This is how debate compelled me to learn more of socialism. While we do need bedrock knowledge (which I did have), debate only serves to vindicate the cause.

- HP

[redprophet]

Yes, debate is a way to stimulate one's development.  However, one must not go into it thinking that their knowledge is complete.  It is necessary to realize that, even if you know you're right, they may very well pummel you.  This can be very discouraging to the young activist.

There's nothing wrong with debate and online forums, I just want to make sure that comrades understand two things:

1) A marxist party is not built by internet work alone

2) Even the internet has some limits

At most, we can hope for a few new contacts from these forums.  Idealizing this method of work as above or beyond others is counterproductive.

[anomaly]

I have a group ready on revleft, and I have been thinking about leading a group of ten or so over to this site called 'stormfront' which my comrades on revleft inform me is full of nazi trash. I agree with what most of you have said, and I do think that once some are educated, some will become socialists. This is exactly what we want. Most of the population out there is rather elastic in their political views, and therefore may become allies in times of revolution, especially a politcal one. The folks we find on discussion forums are usually the ones most interested in politics, and therefore the most beneficial potential comrades.

Also, specifically, how many on this forum are willing to join those of us on revleft in joining this far-right site to bring socialist debate there. I cite as an example what I and fellow comrades have done on debatepolitics. When I joined that forum, there was no discussion of socialism vs. capitalism. Since I have been there, there are 3 new socialists there and many forums dedicated to the debate. Such a debate can initiate change, and that is exactly what we want. On such a far right site as stormfront, I hope to do the same thing, that is, begin a debate. Perhaps not win it, but atleast put it out there. Putting the debate out there, that act alone is quite beneficial to our cause.

[Âèëúÿì]

It is necessary to realize that, even if you know you're right, they may very well pummel you. This can be very discouraging to the young activist.

Yes. I am not so hot in debate myself. I plan to immediately start a group here in the city. Cortland in Upper Northeastern Ohio, USA. Once there will be enough of us and everyone understands the concepts of Marxism and is able to identify bad propoganda on Marxism: we can focus on spreading our ideas and getting new members, participating here and there, etc.

Not to mention infiltration describes a process which can not simply be done by going and shouting your opinion out loud at a crowd that probably doesn't care much about what you have to say. I'd be willing to aid you in any way however in spread of ideas to other forums. Can't hurt. But we need to focus more on RedProphet's points.