Religion

[ckaihatsu]

Perhaps the secular socialist state, tolerating all personal religious practice, also has a public-service ad campaign for mental health, akin to AIDS awareness -- something like "Think before you pray."


:)

[Holocaustpulp]

I agree with anomaly; relentlessly assulting religion will merely crush freedom and plunge the socialist movement into the netherworld of dictatorship.

I also like ckaihatsu's idea (heh).

Religion should wither with the state.

- HP

[Morag]

Maybe it will wither. It all depends on whether the members of religions cooperate or not, I guess. If religion becomes a rallying point for counter-revolution, it could get a bit messy.

On the other hand, religion can bring amazing stability and even leadership in a situation that's going to hell quickly...

[anomaly]

Religion is the most powerful of tools, and should be used accordingly. Any talk of a socialist state 'outlawing' religion is painfully hurting the entire socialist cause. I envision a secular state that tolerates all religions. Again, we must think of how powerful this religion stuff is. We can use religion agaisnt the bourgoisie quite easily. And just imagine a socialist Pope! Yes, religion should hereby be used as a tool for making people see the evils of capitalism. There is one problem, and it is that the capitalists have beat us to this revelation. I'm sure some of you have seen it, on religious channels programs advertised as documentaries exist which compare Marxism to satanism. This untrue propaganda must be shown to be the complete bullshit any thinking human being knows it to be. The best thing and the worst thing (depending on how it's used) about organized religion is that it deteriorates a human's ability to think.

[ckaihatsu]

Isn't it disingenuous and shady to attempt to co-opt and then wield the power of organized religion in the interests of the (workers') state?

I would think it more effective to just allow free individual practice of religion, but to outlaw all formal religious organizations, just as we would for bourgeois capital interests. So much of the religious racket revolves around their tax-exempt status (and other perks with the state).

[Vespucci]

Religion is the most powerful of tools, and should be used accordingly. Any talk of a socialist state 'outlawing' religion is painfully hurting the entire socialist cause. I envision a secular state that tolerates all religions. Again, we must think of how powerful this religion stuff is. We can use religion agaisnt the bourgoisie quite easily. And just imagine a socialist Pope!

Religion's power or lack thereof should have no impact whatsoever on our attitude to it. Anomaly, you sound as if you're mesmerised with the number of its followers and its strong central organisation. Why should this concern us? The modern state has many servants and a strong central organisation too. Does this mean we should protect the state?

Yes, religion should hereby be used as a tool for making people see the evils of capitalism.

How? Do you plan to have socialists infiltrate the churches to their highest levels? Were this even possible, what would we gain from such an effort? We'd merely be tarred with their corruption and wealth, and the obfuscation they preach. Remember: "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing conditions."

There is one problem, and it is that the capitalists have beat us to this revelation. I'm sure some of you have seen it, on religious channels programs advertised as documentaries exist which compare Marxism to satanism. This untrue propaganda must be shown to be the complete bullshit any thinking human being knows it to be.

Then isn't the answer to ensure that human beings think?

The best thing and the worst thing (depending on how it's used) about organized religion is that it deteriorates a human's ability to think.

If you can see this fact, why have you taken the position you have? We are socialists, and we make revolutions of conscious, thinking people, not drones or zombies lured by self-interest or dogma. The worst thing, and only the worst thing, about religion is that it deteriorates a human's ability to think. We can never be a party to this, whatever power is held by those who rule over such unthinking people. Such means are not orientated towards the end we seek.

[anomaly]

You underestimate religion's power and stranglehold on the majority of Earth's population. What I meant by my saying that organized religion deteriorates man's ability to think is that it is precisely this extreme faith that we can use to our advantage. No, I don't suggest infiltrating churches, I only suggest ending this anti-religious talk among socialists. We have to face the fact that most of the people in this world are religious, or atleast place themselves as faithful to some dogma. We should not, therefore, alienate religous followers. Such would only provide fodder for the ignorant talk that Marxism is 'evil'. Marxism should send out a clear message of tolerance of all religious faiths. ONce we do this, we can show religious peoples that capitalism runs contrary to almost all religious beliefs, such as the right to life. Instead of making the mistake of some contemporary bourgeois thinkers who have repeatedly attacked religion, we should show that what matters to us socialists is the welfare of mankind, not their thinking. A worker who has placed himself under some faith is still a worker, and thus should be a central part of the socialist movement. My goal right now is to look for ways of establishing the superior system that is socialism, and if religious tolerance will help us do this, than so be it. I for one do not think it is wise for any socialist state to take any position on religion except that of tolerance for all. I envision a tolerant, secular socialist state, not a mad one that goes so far as to outlaw or punish relgion, or religious persons.

[Vespucci]

What I meant by my saying that organized religion deteriorates man's ability to think is that it is precisely this extreme faith that we can use to our advantage.

No. We want people to be conscious so that they become socialists of their own free will, not unconscious so that they're bound to us by nothing more than indoctrination.

No, I don't suggest infiltrating churches, I only suggest ending this anti-religious talk among socialists. We have to face the fact that most of the people in this world are religious, or atleast place themselves as faithful to some dogma. We should not, therefore, alienate religous followers. Such would only provide fodder for the ignorant talk that Marxism is 'evil'.

This sounds slightly more reasonable, but I think you in turn overestimate the power of religion. In the west, at least, most people only nominally belong to a religion and are loath to believe the fanatics who seek to characterise politics in terms of the cosmic struggle between good and evil. If communism is held to be evil, it's generally because of the Stalinists' record on human rights, and ill-informed reactions to our attitude towards private property. Religion certainly does have an influence, but I think you're in danger of exaggerating it - the worst thing for us would be to overestimate its strength, pander to it and find that this compromise in our principles has brought us little gain to great detriment.

Marxism should send out a clear message of tolerance of all religious faiths. ONce we do this, we can show religious peoples that capitalism runs contrary to almost all religious beliefs, such as the right to life. Instead of making the mistake of some contemporary bourgeois thinkers who have repeatedly attacked religion, we should show that what matters to us socialists is the welfare of mankind, not their thinking.

I suspect that most socialists would probably agree to this. However I think it's better for us to concentrate on political and economic matters and all but ignore religious matters, so that people don't relate religion and attitudes to it to socialism, leaving them to make up their mind based on what really matters.

I for one do not think it is wise for any socialist state to take any position on religion except that of tolerance for all. I envision a tolerant, secular socialist state, not a mad one that goes so far as to outlaw or punish relgion, or religious persons.

I agree that there's no need to punish or coerce the flock, but what about centralised religious hierarchies like the Vatican? Would you leave them intact?

[Holocaustpulp]

As I have said before, the socialist must harness religion but under the socialist banner - we must show the religious how immoral the capitalist establish is, and thus convince them to adopt socialist ideology - we must side with them politically, yet make no distinct religious association other than that of tolerance.

If a religious organization were to side with the socialists according to these standards, they would inevitably not be dogmatic.

- Holocaustpulp

[anomaly]

Originally posted by Vespucci
No. We want people to be conscious so that they become socialists of their own free will, not unconscious so that they're bound to us by nothing more than indoctrination.

 

This sounds slightly more reasonable, but I think you in turn overestimate the power of religion. In the west, at least, most people only nominally belong to a religion and are loath to believe the fanatics who seek to characterise politics in terms of the cosmic struggle between good and evil. If communism is held to be evil, it's generally because of the Stalinists' record on human rights, and ill-informed reactions to our attitude towards private property. Religion certainly does have an influence, but I think you're in danger of exaggerating it - the worst thing for us would be to overestimate its strength, pander to it and find that this compromise in our principles has brought us little gain to great detriment.

 

I suspect that most socialists would probably agree to this. However I think it's better for us to concentrate on political and economic matters and all but ignore religious matters, so that people don't relate religion and attitudes to it to socialism, leaving them to make up their mind based on what really matters.

 

I agree that there's no need to punish or coerce the flock, but what about centralised religious hierarchies like the Vatican? Would you leave them intact?

I agree with most of what you say. I am simply against the abolition of religion, and I'm glad to see that you are too. What would I do about the Vatican? Well, nothing, unless world socialism was running. In that case I would influence the Vatican to be pro-socialist, and they'd likely listen. If they remained anti-socialist, so be it. If we have world socialism, and some 100 million loyal Catholics are anti-socialist because of their church's teaching (obviously most Catholics would ignore such talk), who cares (in a world of over 6billion)?

[Guerillero]

Well i beleive religion will still have a place in society. As a private hobby or beleif. We must keep in mind that imposed atheism can be just as harmful as imposed religion. Hurting our cause and glorifying the capitalist establishment as "crusaders".
              Although people will be free to follow any religion they want, religion and religious laws will have no place in the state. Laws will be laid down and the state will function on the basis of rationality and reason. no arguements based on faith or religious dogma will be accepted.