Marxism vs. Annarchy

[Swimmingadict]

The question of the state and capitalism needs to be discussed by Marxist since many youths struggle choosing between Annarchy and Marxism, we need to guild them to Marxism

[Daymare17]

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marxism_and_state.html

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/direct_action.html

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/chomsky_part1.htm

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/chomsky_part2.htm

[styrken]

 

[Swimmingadict]

Yeah I’ve read them, there're great, but we need to create some ideas for combating anarchism in the youth, we all know it is a foolish and absurd philosophy.

[styrken]

i think the best way to discuss with anarchists is to ask them how they will do different things and then explain why the marxist way of thinking is much better. about the state, simply ask, "how will society work if we turned to anarchy tomorow? will the economy grow in the long term?", "if we have no state after the revolution, then how will you defend the new society against the contra-revolutionaries?". i think that if you discuss such questions with young anarchists the best om them will see that marxism is the best way forward. the rest of them we can leave safe to the bourgeois state police ;)

[Daymare17]

Originally posted by styrken
i think that if you discuss such questions with young anarchists the best om them will see that marxism is the best way forward. the rest of them we can leave safe to the bourgeois state police ;)

How solidaric :D

[Monster]

yeah, but true... a lot of youth call themselves anarchistic because socialism is infected with a bad air around it, due to stalinism. And they want to change the world for the better, without the top-control and bureaucratic mismanagement of stalinism, or the present right-wing bourgeois state... so they look for something without that top-control - and here comes anarchism! It's even got a nice cultural approach and it's own little environment with funny dressed people (at least in most european countries). So some gets attracted to it, and call themselves anarchists. But these people are normally quite easy to convince about the ideas of marxism, if you use the logics from the texts linked above, and a Patient, explaining way of talking to them. They're not like our enemies, at least most of them are not, simply confused, that's all...  

btw, Rob Lyon from marxist.com is going to write more stuff on anarchism soon (at least he told me so..)

[P.O.U.M]

Murry Bookchin, an anarchist himself, does a rather nice job of criticising anarchism for being a liberal lifestyle now-a-days. Of course hes trying to bring back the revolutionary anarchism. Though I do think most anarchists have just adopted the petty bourgeois lifestyle of anarchism now.

Also with talking to anarchists its always best to be patient and understanding especially from there point of view. Especially things on the state. You have to explain to them what our state would look like. I think most just hear the word state and think of a bourgeoisie state or stalinism. And along with Stalinism, most anarchists see lenin and bolshevism as the legitimate creation of stalinism. So you got to explain that its not...blah blah. And then some of them will pull that crap...Bakunin predicted the horrors of stalin from marxism...blah blah:rolleyes:  bakunin, what a pompous jackass.

[Volkov]

As for Anarchism, I feel that genuine Anarchism is not very popular in regards to those who are on the Left, given that most of the people who call themselves Anarchists where I live are merely angry gothic teenagers.  I don't know about Europe, but this seems true over here in the US.

Anarchism also seems to base a good deal of its propaganda on what the Capitalists do (just look at how they preach about the "innate evils" of Bolshevism and other such nonsense).  To restort to such propaganda is quite reactionary, and it only serves to aid the ruling class.  

And then we have their nonsense of the state being the root of all evil, and how things will be fine when the state is destroyed, as well as their nonsense indicating that authority must be nonexistent.  These claims are Idealistic, and I feel that due to how easily they are refuted, they do not warrant a seroius discussion on this board.

[turnoviseous]

I dont know if it is of any help, but as I said in past, anarchism is totally idealistic interpretation of history.

While the above is totally true for all branches of anarchism, anarchism could as well (very roughly) be put into 2 categories: one of total petty-bourgeois illusions (Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin itd.), the other of workers dictatorship understood abstractly (that is to say, in abstraction of time and history - anarcho syndicalism).

[proletarianrevo]

I think we have to first and foremost distinguish between 'real' anarchists - who in my opinnion are a waste of time - and confused youngsters who are influenced by anarchist ideas. The latter are the interesting ones.
In my oppinion much of their hatred towards the state is obviously rooted in the fact that they see the harsh repression which in many cases is the hallmark of the bourgois state - they see it as the product of the state alone.
We have to be quite honest and say that we are not in favour of any state - but as we know that the state is the product of class society it will only wither away as class societ withers away. We have to explain the semi-charachter of the workers' state, ans so on. And lastsly, but no less important, we have to counter all the anarchist slander about the russian revolution. To this should be added a study of anarchism in practice - especially the lessons of the Spanish civil war in which the anarchist CGT and FAI played the most treachoreas role. The fact is that anarchism - when having mass influence - acts like any other reformist tendency.

comradely,
Andreas

[turnoviseous]

I totally agree with you proletarianrevo.

I believe we have had this discussion already in some other thread. I believe we discussed their interpretation of Russian revolution and their claim that the whole totalitarian play started with bolsheviks. I must say I still havent read their whole text and thought about it fully. But mainly they bring up myths about Makhno and how he was able to have a true soviet-like organized groups even in extremely backward conditions - which is a total lie.

[P.O.U.M]

Rather intresting to note that the CNT entered the Catalonian government. Complete betrayal of anarchist ideas. But on top of that, the CNT leaderhip didnt even bother consulting the rank and file. Now thats some anarchism for ya.

Also rather funny. The POUM was outlawed and chased down before the CNT. Even though POUM stood with the CNT in the trenches and came to their call on the May Days. And the anarchists rant and rave on how the Bolsheviks stabed the anarchists in the back during the Russian Revolution.

[ACE]

Misconceptions about Anarchism,  I think when most people hear the term Anarchism they think of Riots and general mahem with arson and people throwing molitof cocktails at everything and every one the destruction of all government all rule of law all class systems all forms of societal control over the masses.  This tho quite appealing would be all but impossible to attain, except the night after a major sporting event victory, if you've ever heard about how college sports fans get after their teams win the championship. but I digress.  we'll talke more later

[P.O.U.M]

Misconceptions about Anarchism, I think when most people hear the term Anarchism they think of Riots and general mahem with arson and people throwing molitof cocktails at everything and every one the destruction of all government all rule of law all class systems all forms of societal control over the masses.

This is different from anarchism how?