Esf

[kimberlysark]

Dear Andreas,

Of course we can't "dwell over the past" as you say - but seeing as IDOM has dedicated numerous recent articles to doing exactly that in dealing with the CWI split it would now seem completely anti-democratic and against the best traditions of the labour movement to not publish both sides of the debate in full.

As this is the split that led to the creation of the CMI surely it wants its members and future adherants to study the debates - that means studying both the majority and minority documents.

I was at the ESF demo on Sunday - I saw only one CMI member selling 'La Riposte'. During the entire anti-war movement I never saw more than 10 or so CMI members on the massive demonstrations. Of course, the size of a group is not what matters. A small group with the right ideas and tactics can make up for its numerical weakness - as was the case with Militant in the 1960s and 1970s.
 
On the Labour Party - it no longer has a mass base in the working class in my view. Only the Trade Union bureaucrats remain tied to it. Whether workers will move back through the Labour Party in times of struggle is the key debate. At the moment the Labour Party is empty. No normal working class young person would join the Labour Party now! Only middle class careerists do (such as Labour Students).

The FBU strike led to them dissafiliating from Labour. Workers can be forced to cut all links with Labour as a result of their experiences in bitter struggle against the Labour Government. It's totally mechanical, and needless to say undialectical, to argue that workers in struggle will definitely move back through the Labour Party as Alan Woods, Rob Sewell and other cdes do.    


Yours comradely,




KS

[P.O.U.M]

I dont know the situation in the UK, but what is the situation? Are the workers class conscious? Whats happening to the LP? And the like. Things like this dont appear in my newspaper except how great Tony Blair is because of his support for the war.

[mrbojangles]

just to say that i read in the Scottish Socialist Voice (paper of the SSP) that there are meetings in Glasgow (tonight) and Dundee (tommorow night) to celebrate the 40th aniversary of the Militant. Speaking will be Peter Taffe, former editor of the Militant, Tony Mulhearn, LIverpool councillor in the 1980s and the National President of the PCS.
On the labour party, poum you should read this article
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA70B.htm on the recent party conference

I'm also wondering why these radicalised youth are not filling the ranks of the revolutioary parties outside of labour ( for sure they are not joining labour either.)

just becasue
they may not be turning to revolutionary organisations (eg SWP, SP etc) does not mean they are not radicalised. They  are certainly getting involved with the anti capitalist movement, perhaps in the peace movement, green movement. I know that the SSP and Green Party in Scotland are attracting a lot of young people to their organisations. Maybe they are not attracted to the sort of revolutionary politics that trotsyist sects have to offer....

[Bobajip]

Originally posted by mrbojangles

they may not be turning to revolutionary organisations (eg SWP, SP etc) does not mean they are not radicalised. They  are certainly getting involved with the anti capitalist movement, perhaps in the peace movement, green movement. I know that the SSP and Green Party in Scotland are attracting a lot of young people to their organisations. Maybe they are not attracted to the sort of revolutionary politics that trotsyist sects have to offer....

Exactly, many youth are being radicalised but they are not moving towards the official labour movemnet - they are being attracted by petty bousiouge campaigns - and I agree with you that they are not being attracted by 'trotskists sects' - which in my opinion is an argument for not creating one, but trying to develop and maintain the marxist current in the Labour Movement.

Unfortunatly the SSP and the Green party and to a lesser extent the anti-capitalist movement will not provide these young people with the kind of radical solutions they might be looking for. I agree with you that the labour party of course is even less atractive at the moment.

So what is the way forward? Should we abandon all political discussion and just follow the greens or the SSP?
Or should we prepare for a change in conciousness in the future.

Its also worth pointing out by the way that the majority of working class youth are not moving in a political direction at all - in other words there is a radicalisation among certain sections of youth - which is important - but this radicalisation is only the begining of a much wider movement that could unfold. For example the political level of youth in the uk during the late eighties and early nineties was much higher indeed.
Its also difficult to see much in the way of organised expression of this movement.

Bobajip

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

'your right. so can we expect more articles on these issues and less revisionist histories/interviews from sewell and grant? i hope so. IN the past few years a lot of new, young people have been radicalised by the nati war movement,anti globalisation movement, and just general disgust at the labour party's contempt for working people and students. dragging up these issues from 12 years ago , i would guess, means nothing to them and possibly turns them of getting involved in left wing politics altogether. Maybe discussing them internally is the way forward for the cmi and not on your public website....?'

Mr Bo , IDOM does discuss , debate and comment on these issues. Dont be so pedantic , it doesnt become you.

Kimberley sark. Guess what , we disagree!!
Workers arent moving to the tiny 'left' micro parties. The FBU have disaffiliated, the RMT were disaffiliated, from the so called 'capitalist' Labour Party.. So apart from the odd branch giving their hard earned cash to either the SSP or RESPECT, and I mean the odd branch, where is the evidence of these two unions completely breaking with Labour and getting actively involved with the creation of anti Blair political opposition? BTW there are 4 RMT members in my ward branch of the LP and an FBU militant is the secretary of a local LP.
KS, there is possibly 5 months to the next general election. Where is the new 'workers party'??

[OUTOFTHENIGHT]

Anyway, all this is very interesting but I would like to hear a report about the ESF.
What and who did it represent?
Was it well attended?
What happened at the Iraq meeting?(I hear the tiny Workers Power group stormed the stage!!! I bet that upset 'mummy and daddy'!!)
Does the ESF really represent anything? I really hope it does but all the bureaucracy and sectarianism around it will not attract workers especially youth.
Ian

[Bobajip]

can I suggest we start some new threads.

One on radicalisation of youth.
One on the split
and one on the new workers party vs labpur party.
Plus this thread on ESF - which could be abput , well, the ESF.

Perhaps one of the mooderators could copy relevent posts onto new threads and then there can be three seperate discussions.

What do people think?

Bobajip

[proletarianrevo]

Hi Ian
I was at the ESF. However, I was not able to attend many meetings, apart from the ones organized by ourselves, because I helped the comrades out at the stalls all the time.

Yes, I think that the ESF does represent something. It represents a desire on the part of an increasing layer of the middle class youth (and also small layers of the w-class youth) to change the world, it is a reflection of a general mistrust to the present system, which also found a reflection in the big antiwar movements in the beginning of 2003.

Although this radicalisation of the youth is quite significant, it is somewhat important to stress that this has not been reflected politically on a massive level yet. In Denmark, we have seen the youth on the streets several times in completely unprecedented numbers, but still, in 'trade union-struggles', and these thousands of youth have not joined any political youth organisation on a massive scale yet (although the YS membership has increased a bit). (By the way, if you're interested in this, some articles can be found here: http://www.marxist.com/WesternEurope_indexes/denmark.asp )

And from my point of view, the ESF, it is still largely confined to the most active, advanced layers of the youth. And the composition of the ESF is also reflected in alot of strange ideas at the forum, which, it seems, is a reflection of the middle class composition of the Forum.

That does not signify that Marxist should not be present. we should, and we were indeed, and got in contact with some very interested militant young people!

However, it is necessary to draw a sober balance sheet of the ESF movement and a sober analysis of its composition and significance. We should not fall into the same trap as the sects, especially the SWP, who completely exaggerate the significance of the ESF and promotes it as a new magic formula, and a short cut to success.

I hope that this reply gives you some kind of picture.

comradely,
Andreas