George Bush and the Draft

[mrbojangles]

If George Bush is re-elected, some have said that he will reintroduce the draft - ie make it compulsory for Young americans to sign up and serve time in the army. this probably only applies to the americans on the board, but if it was reintroduced, would you sign up or be concientous objector?

[marx_was_right]

It leaves a young Man with no choice really, sign up, go to Iraq, die. Or refuse, go to jail, get buggered, die.

It's hard to call until you are faced with the situation, certainly you could try to take your revolutionary ideas into the army, but some redneck might just kill you for it :(

What do you think Mr Bo?

[klynn44]

I've read recently that both Bush and Kerry oppose the draft.
Or at least, say now that they oppose the draft to gain the trust of voters.

But, here's what I've heard/read about the draft in the past:
The proposed bills would make it more difficult to avoid being drafted.
First, the draft would include women.
Second, there would be agreements with Canada to not harbor any US citizens who have moved there to dodge the draft.
Third, university students called up would only be allowed to finish their current semester of classes (or seniors their current school year). (If you remember, much of the turmoil in the states during the Vietnam war was caused by college students.)
Fourth, there is talk that people with dual citizenship (US and another country) might be drafted, regardless of where they're living.

Here  is H.R. 163, which was shot down 402-2 in the House.

Here is S.89 which hasn't been voted on yet.

Katherine

[mrbojangles]

i probably think that i would be an objector. I dont think i could sign up to a war that i believed was wrong in the first place and go to iraq to kill other young people just like me.
then again, i have a choice in that i am a young, well educated member of the middle classes - and it is these people who would most object to the draft becasue it stops then from living a nice cosyexistance ina nice home with a nice well paid job. IN america those who sign up to the army often have no choice becasue of their economic position in society - young poor black men in most cases

[P.O.U.M]

Dont forget people with disabilities too. Being flat footed or having ADD wont keep you out anymore.

But I dont think the draft is too much of a worry anymore...unless King George II gets "elected" again.

The LA Times recently had an article on the draft.

Republicans Glad to Lose on Bill to Start New Draft
The hasty House vote 'putting a rumor to rest' is 402-2.

Democrats call the tactic a sham that trivializes the problem of troop shortages.

By Faye Fiore and Richard Simon
Times Staff Writers

October 6, 2004

WASHINGTON — Seeking to dispel suggestions that the war in Iraq could lead to reinstatement of the draft, House Republicans on Tuesday hastily brought the idea to a vote — with the express intent of shooting it down.

The vote, launched with only hours of notice and no public hearings, was designed to put an end to talk that President Bush's foreign policy could overtax the all-volunteer Army that has been national policy since the end of the Vietnam War.

"It's putting a rumor to rest," John Feehery, a spokesman for House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), said even before the 402-2 vote to reject the bill that would have mandated two years of military or civilian service for all men and women 18 to 26 years old.

But congressional Democrats and activists elsewhere denounced the vote as an empty exercise that trivialized what many Americans believe is a real possibility.

"They have used gamesmanship to give a false sense that there is not going to be a draft. Nobody wants a draft. But if you don't have the manpower to confront the need, then there is no option," said Bobby Muller, founder of the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation, an international organization that addresses the causes and consequences of war.

Speculation about a draft has grown in intensity as tours of duty in Iraq have grown longer, more National Guard forces have been called up and recruitment has sagged. Some military authorities have questioned whether the United States' armed forces are large enough to defeat the insurgents in Iraq and meet military needs elsewhere.

Sen. John F. Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate, suggested during a campaign stop in Iowa on Tuesday that the Bush administration could reinstitute the draft.

"I've never said they're going to have a draft," Kerry said. "I've said I don't know what they're going to do. I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to pursue a policy that guarantees that we don't have to have a draft."

Administration officials have flatly ruled out the prospect of a new draft, and Bush said at a campaign stop this week that "we will not have a draft so long as I'm the president of the United States."

But the idea remains politically explosive — especially among young people and their parents — at the height of a presidential election campaign.

In a recent survey by the Alliance for Security, a Washington-based project to establish a dialogue about national security, more than half of those polled voiced concern that the United States could be headed for a draft "in the near future."

Rock the Vote, a nonpartisan group founded in 1990 to motivate young voters, recently sent e-mails to 640,000 college-age people featuring a fake conscription card emblazoned with the words: "You have been drafted."

The subject has been discussed with persistence on college campuses and on the Internet, where copies of Tuesday's draft bill have circulated among parents and teachers.

And when the Selective Service System recently stepped up efforts to recruit volunteers to serve on 1,980 draft boards around the country, the agency said it merely wanted to be "prepared to manage a draft if and when the president and the Congress so direct." That attempt at readiness appeared to propel speculation that was already traveling fast.

Given the closeness of the presidential race, Republican strategists worry that young voters could be prompted to turn out for Kerry in potentially damaging numbers.

So the House GOP leadership unearthed a bill that has been gathering dust since it was introduced nearly two years ago by Rep. Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.).

Rangel wrote the bill to call attention to what he said was the result of a volunteer system — a disproportionate number of minorities and low-income soldiers serving in today's armed forces.

House Republicans scored the chance of passing the Universal National Service Act at zero, something that usually keeps a measure from coming to a vote. But GOP leaders did precisely the opposite Tuesday, attaching the measure to a list of uncontroversial items such as renaming post offices.

"After all the conspiracy talk and the e-mails flying all over this country," House Majority Leader Tom DeLay of Texas said, the vote would "put a nail in that coffin." He accused the Democrats of using the issue as a "dishonest and willful campaign of misinformation."

"This campaign — which started as a whisper but has since been given voice by the leading Democrats in the country today — asserts without any evidence whatsoever that there is a secret Republican plan to reinstitute the military draft," DeLay said.

Democrats and activists dismissed Tuesday's House action as hollow. Rangel voted against the very bill he wrote and accused the Republicans of "prostituting" the legislative process for political gain.

Only Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) and Rep. Pete Stark (D-Hayward) voted for the measure.

Other critics said the Republicans merely had denied voters a meaningful discussion of how the military planned to meet the needs of national defense should circumstances change.

"A generation that may indeed be called to service deserves more than this," said Hans Riemer, Washington director of Rock the Vote. "Any member of Congress who votes against this bill should be able to explain how they would avoid a draft if a full-scale civil war erupts in Iraq or if we must take military action against Iran, North Korea or another identified threat."

The Army has acknowledged for several months that it is under extraordinary strain, with nine out of 10 active-duty divisions either playing a role in Iraq or planning to. Recruitment among reserves, who make up half the nation's forces, has suffered. Many reservists have been forced to extend their tours of duty, which Kerry has characterized as "a backdoor draft."

In response, Congress has appeared to be acting to bolster the all-volunteer force. Influential lawmakers, including Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John W. Warner (R-Va.), have questioned the wisdom of drafting reluctant soldiers and the cost-effectiveness of training draftees for only a couple of years of service, as opposed to those who join with a career in mind.

A bill approved by the House would add 39,000 troops to the Army and Marines over the next three years. The Senate has voted to increase the size of the Army by 20,000 next year. Both chambers also have moved to increase military pay and benefits to make military careers more attractive.

*

Times staff writer Matea Gold in Tipton, Iowa, contributed to this report.

[Volkov]

From P.O.U.M

Dont forget people with disabilities too. Being flat footed or having ADD wont keep you out anymore.

Are all people with disabilities supposed to go in, or just certain ones?  I am Autistic, and from what I have heard, Autists, given their opinionated stances and hatred of sudden distrubances, are not even allowed to enlist due to the fact that we are more prone to revolting agianst screaming sergents and officers.  

The draft does not seem like it will be enstated, or at least not yet.  Any party supporting it would be committing electoral suicide.  However, when the elections are over (and it does not matter who wins, for Kerry and Bush are not much different, and even Woods pointed this out in one of his speeches), one of them may try to reinstate it.  

If it gets reinstated, and if I can't be drafted, I will probably be arrested for "Criminal Anarchy," for I would be urging people to resist the draft.  If I can be drafted, I will probably flee to a different nation (I would have Norway for a top choice, but due to my fluency only being in English, I would probably have to settle for somewhere like Ireland or Scotland, for I would want to avoid the reactionary Tony Blair), for Canada has agreed not to harbor draft-dodgers this time.

Reinstating the draft will only produce another quantitative change that will eventually lead to a qualitiative leap in the consciousness of the masses.  If we are lucky, Capitalism may only have a few decades left, given the turbulent things going on right now.

[mir]

Like Volkov said, there's another choice instead of jail or war-fleeing the country.  Thousands have done it, why not you?

[klynn44]

I would flee the country before I would fight in this war.

Katherine

[Swimmingadict]

“I will not send American boys to do what Vietnamese boys can do for them selves" LBJ a year latter 1/2 a million troops were in Vietnam, including my uncle who was a POW for 8 years.  The fact is that numerically the US can't keep up it's forces in Iraq because most are reserves and the military has too low of a volunteer rate. Both candidates may say that they oppose a draft, but when push comes to shove they will have to. I would rather rot in prison and die than take up arms against other workers. My father, uncle and other family members who lived through the Vietnam era say that this is how it started. A few deaths here and there then a few more and more until it is 58,000 and rising. There is no war which I would take arms for other than that for the end of the bourgeoisie. I hate capitalism in all its forms especially that of war.

[P.O.U.M]

I couldnt shot other workers but also i would not be able to rot in prison. I can barely stand being in my room for more than an hour. Rotting in prison to me is by far one of the worst things to me. Being in a small cell all day with some exrecise and constantly worrying about being someones wife. And all the stories, at least in the US, are almost all true. There was an actor who came to my school who goes around talks to kids in schools and jails to give motivational speeches because he was the hardcore gangster himself when he was kid. And he basically said all the stories you hear are probably true.

The only option I see for me is Mexico, being in southern california. People cross the boarder up all the time, why not cross the border down. Of course if a draft was reinstated im sure the gov. would increase the border patrol. As O'Reily has been saying we should put the national guards at the border. And if the draft does come, i woulndt be surprised if the national guards started to patrol the border.

[mir]

If any of us do have to go into a capitalist war, turn your guns on your officers instead of the other side.

[Swimmingadict]

Damn Right

[mrbojangles]

I dont think i would flee the country rather than go to jail for refusing to be conscripted - its hardly the principled socialist thing to do is ? To an extend you could call it political persecution, but it is a far milder form of it than those who face political persecution in the past had have fled the country because their lives were in danger.
John Maclean, the great scottish marxist, suffered terrible conditions in prison (much worse than being 'buggered') during the first world war yet he did so because he knew he was right and he was standing up for his beliefs.

[Volkov]

Originally posted by mir
If any of us do have to go into a capitalist war, turn your guns on your officers instead of the other side.

I would probably do that if the sergent got on my nerves by getting in my face and started yelling all the time during training.  I would probably never make it to actual combat, for I would explode sooner than that.

From mrbojangles:

I dont think i would flee the country rather than go to jail for refusing to be conscripted - its hardly the principled socialist thing to do is ? To an extend you could call it political persecution, but it is a far milder form of it than those who face political persecution in the past had have fled the country because their lives were in danger.
John Maclean, the great scottish marxist, suffered terrible conditions in prison (much worse than being 'buggered') during the first world war yet he did so because he knew he was right and he was standing up for his beliefs.

Marx himself fled to England after a failed revolution in 1848.  Lenin himself also had to flee Russia for a time.  In this day and age, when Capitalism is in crisis, the Bourgeoisie will no longer be able to use its democratic veil.  It will not hesitate to resort to sheer and naked reaction.  I would not be surprised if they started shooting us on sight in crisis if there was a problem.  The PATRIOT Act is just a small sign of things to come when the Capitailst reactionaries are in a state of severe crisis, and when the consciousness of the workers is almost at its boiling point.  If they draft and consciousness if low, then flee.  If it reaches its boiling point, arm youself and fight against the reaction.  

[Daymare17]

Originally posted by Volkov
Marx himself fled to England after a failed revolution in 1848.  Lenin himself also had to flee Russia for a time.  In this day and age, when Capitalism is in crisis, the Bourgeoisie will no longer be able to use its democratic veil.  It will not hesitate to resort to sheer and naked reaction.  I would not be surprised if they started shooting us on sight in crisis if there was a problem.  The PATRIOT Act is just a small sign of things to come when the Capitailst reactionaries are in a state of severe crisis, and when the consciousness of the workers is almost at its boiling point.  If they draft and consciousness if low, then flee.  If it reaches its boiling point, arm youself and fight against the reaction.

Well said!