United States

[T.K.A.-Denmark]

am NOT an anti-communit and I am NOT a servant of imperialism and YOU have NO proof that I am, and I know this because I haven't even TOLD you my world views or anything yet, so STOP making hasty assumptions based just because we disagree! Please take it back.

I said Ghandi was, not you. It's pretty obvious.

[Archer]

Alight. I'm sorry then.

[T.K.A.-Denmark]

No problem.

Anyway the reason im not really going in to this debate is that I have seen so many similar to it and I don't bother yet another time.

[mir]

Archer, sorry if you got offended by what I said but that doesn't change the fact that sometimes you must change your opinion because it could be wrong.  I have offered you an explanation about the differences in war and specifically stated that communist revolutions cannot succeed if they are forced, I even mentioned the USSR.  How do you respond?  By citing the examples of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and Chinese invasion of Tibet!  From what I've read, your objections against war stems from the fact that war is "killing" and I think this is due to the fact that your views are similar to pacifism (if I'm wrong, correct me).  

Here's Trotsky's artice, Pacifism as the Servant of Imperialism.  http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1917/pacifism.htm

Not all Capitalists are evil demons out to steal your underwear. You can't just generalize like that. Sure, they're mostly just a bunch of greedy or mislead pigs, but that alone doesn't make them horrible people.

Well, we differ totally here because I believe ALL capitalists (in the proper sense) are evil.  ALL are greedy pigs.  And ALL are horrible people.

[revointx]

I would love to join in on this conversation, but non of the pro-communist factions have stated which communist factionthey back. Personally, I back Archer's opinion but, it's pretty hard to argue agianst communist who don't identify themselves as Stalinist, Maoist, or Troskyist. But, one arguement I'ld love to make is that socialism is NOT the halfway point between communism, but is a broad term.
I myself am a revolutionary socialist and a Zapatista, as my fathers before me. And while I'm a huge fan of Marx's Alienation and the Materialist History, I found the Communist Manifesto rather lacking.
Another point that I'ld would like to back of Archer's is the move away from the sickle and anvil. When I started a student socialist group at my school I named it the Red Star Movenment to play off of Che's popularity. And when I spoke of socialist heroes I choos not to speak about Stalin, Lenin, Castro, or Mao. Instead, I spoke of great AMERICAN socialist heroes. Martin Luther King Jr, Malcom X, Cesar Chavez, Eugene Debbs, Abbie Hoffman, Tupac Shakur. I point out that the city I call home (Dallas) was founded by French  utopian socialist. And that local celebrity Erika Badu almost always speaks out for the need of revolution, though no socailist group has the courage to try to recriut here. And I usually quote Thomas Payne in my political rants and say with all patriotic loyality that America needs to be a nation "for the people, by the people."
In all nations the revolution will be different. The Cuban Revolution was unlike the Chinese revolution was unlike the Russian Revolution. The US has come close in the past to falling into a socailist country, each time leading to huge government reforms. It is our duty as American Revolutionaries to always push the american people .

[P.O.U.M]

But, one arguement I'ld love to make is that socialism is NOT the halfway point between communism, but is a broad term.

Well it kinda is the "halfway point" or at least the historical stage before communism (a classless society). For Marxists, more so the revolutionary Marxists, the lower stage of communism is referred to as socialism, the transitional stage. In which classes still exists and thus does the state. Please see Lenin's State and RevolutionFirst Phase of Communist Society.

But yes, it is all used a very broad and general term used by anyone who is anti-capital.

I spoke of great AMERICAN socialist heroes.

Just to add a few more to the list...

- Samuel Adams
- Thomas Jefferson
- John Brown
- John Reed
- James Cannon
- Abe Lincoln (to an extent)
- Joe Hill
- The May Day Martyrs
- Daniel DeLeon
- Native Americans (Lenins idea's about the state can be traced back to the native americans)

[Volkov]

But, one arguement I'ld love to make is that socialism is NOT the halfway point between communism, but is a broad term.

Well it kinda is the "halfway point" or at least the historical stage before communism (a classless society). For Marxists, more so the revolutionary Marxists, the lower stage of communism is referred to as socialism, the transitional stage. In which classes still exists and thus does the state. Please see Lenin's State and RevolutionFirst Phase of Communist Society.

But yes, it is all used a very broad and general term used by anyone who is anti-capital.

I spoke of great AMERICAN socialist heroes.

Just to add a few more to the list...

- Samuel Adams
- Thomas Jefferson
- John Brown
- John Reed
- James Cannon
- Abe Lincoln (to an extent)
- Joe Hill
- The May Day Martyrs
- Daniel DeLeon
- Native Americans (Lenins idea's about the state can be traced back to the native americans)

Yes, this is true.  I purchased a copy of Alan Woods's Marxism and the USA, and it is quite good.  I am interested in getting some of the works he cites in the book to get a deeper perspective on that topic.  I would highly recommend that anyone who is interested in a great introduction to the history of the USA and how Marxism  applies to it get a copy of Woods's Marxism and the USA. 

[fire_mat99]

According to the name of this sub-forum, there is only a leftist movement in the UK. I believe that all movements meant to benefit the whole world should take place everywhere possible! In other words, it should be an international movement!

There is big socialist movement in Latin countries. Many people have posters or t-shirts of Che Guevara. Some parts of Europe are left wing.

I'm not entirely sure of how things are going over in europe, though I've heard that some progress is being made here and there. Good, but I'm not one to settle for progress "here and there," and you shouldn't be either.

There more progress  in Latin countries than Europe..

We need a new approach. All we're doing is being hammered by propoganda everywhere from history class to the media. If we ever plan to get anywhere, we have to overcome this! Our first and primary goal right now should be getting the public to realize we're the good guys, not that the Capitalists are bad guys like we've been doing. If we keep just saying they're bad, we're going to stay as publicly despised as we are. We need to be charitable, get noticed by the media for doing good things.

You need more groups like OCAP like OCAP in Ontario..

Also, a new symbol is needed. The hammer and sickle make people feel an emotion similar to fear now, and that's a very bad thing! The same thing goes for clenched, raised fists. We need to promote ourselves as helpful, not a force to be feared.

Anyone that is true socialist knows what it is!!! No need to change it. The people that are not socialist do not have to see it..

Something we really need is a new champion of the working class. I would love to try to fill this role, but I'm young, so I'll have to do it in a few years. We need to get one of our own into the eye of the public so that they know we're here. I mean, right now, most Americans are planning on voting for what they call the "lesser of two evils," so if we had a Gandhi-esque person rise up and say, "Look! There is a positive alternative!" then we'd be doing pretty well. Heck, even a radio talk-show host might do (just anything to counter Rush Limbaugh).

Americans will be last countries to turn to socialist .The US will have major problems and not know how to fix it they will see the Latin countries doing well and start to look at them.


 Most of the working class are starting to see problems in the US but are lost has to why and how to fix it.

No more of this hitting the streets stuff. If I were a common, mislead American, I sure wouldn't be convinced of anything by an angry man, let alone an angry mob. Smiling posters and smiling people offering smiling hand-outs are the way to go for now, just to keep the whole positive visage going.

Okay socialist not all about the free hand outs but state ownership and not competitive market system  and no class division.

For the umpteenth time, we need to be fun, cheery, happy people. Plus, people can find faults with strikes but nothings really wrong with sweet old Mr. John Doe handing out pretty leaflets and hot-dogs.

I like mike moore he points out many US problems, problems with the war and problems with capitalism. He is not socialist but more left than the liberal party in the US. So he is pointing out problems with the US and capitalism so that is start .I did not think the US people where that left to watch his movies I was wrong. :o

We have lots of websites on our side, but really. Whoop-de-do. I have yet to find I site of ours with a simple guide on how to convince other people to join the cause. All the sites require people to come to the site itself to be convinced. Teach us how to convince others! Don't make us just be middle-men!

A web site on socialist is not going to educate people it is up to you to join group or start group in your town to educate the people like a meeting every weak or 2 times a month. It will be how much you know your stuff.

Long story short, here are some of my suggestions to everybody on how to get this motion going:

1) Get outside the box and go international.

You cannot!! If you have airplane and money you can do this.

2) Donate money and offer jobs to the poor and jobless, provide the homeless with homes, etc. just so people know we're good.

That want the OCAP does in Toronto they get youth and protest and say I want more money, I want the NDP or socialist party of Canada, I want affordable homes, I want better work, I want more pay so on.OCAP is much more than just socialist .And they have thousands youth members.

A semi-socialism will be last stage before true socialism.

3) Ditch the hammer and sickle, the clenced fist of riots, etc. and come up with a very positive symbol, like a dolphin.

Do you know there is Marx and Lenin party in Canada!!

4) Make one of our leaders famous via the media.

media is conservative
 

[(Re)volution]

I have the feeling that the United States is at a point that it will never change, look around and see that the people are mostly ignorant and apathetic. The media is owned by the governemtn, every big piece of american society is owned by a corperation, anf that is where people get their news. At a young age the few children who do pay some attention in school are taught of the failures and evils of communism citing Stalin as an example. The people I believe that can spark the fires of the revolution the most which is the true working class, have mostly been crippled. they have been kept ignorant, and brought into a lifestyle and mentality that prevents a rising up. Especially the people in the Ghetto, we know they are our true worker but have been enveloped so strongly into this "thug" culture, and have been kept ignorant for so long. Not to mention the rampant amount of drugs in the poor communities that keep them down. I mean think about it, i want to change America with a smile and a sheet of paper expressing our views as much as the next, but the people will never understand. The average American family is politically aware, yet politcally apathetic. They watch the news see something they want to change, and then go back to dinner. The government doesn't hear the voice of protestors anymore, they really don't have too. Honestly the Hammer and Sickle is the best symbol we can have right now, it represent the workers and determination. It represents the strength the workers have united. Anyways I think strong action needs to be made, I mean we are just like the punk kids crying for anarchy, we aren't in large numbers or taken seriously around here. the people need to be informed, and action needs to be taken. I don't know how but I relize the old methods aren't really going to work.

[Pie]

I have the feeling that the United States is at a point that it will never change

I get that feeling sometimes too, the US has not experienced many of the same events that have happened in Europe, Asia, or Africa, or anywhere else really. There have been some instances but usually not to the degree of most other places. But also have no fear, every society changes, every age will change into a different age, change is inevitable.

look around and see that the people are mostly ignorant and apathetic.

Many are because our schooling system has been falling behind so many other countries, and people still have everything from the Cold War, Stalin, Mao, collapse of the USSR, and such other things to "educate" themselves that socialism is just a utopia, and is unrealistic. In time I think many of these things will disappear more and more, I hope, otherwise a struggle for a socialist society is extravagantly harder. And also a lot of things are distorted, I know of some people saying things that socialism equates to fascism, governemnt is a socialist idea and policy, and so on and so forth. Also another thing is that when an "average" American usually thinks of things like politics, it is Democrat vs. Republican. When they think of history, it is just certain events and people, and not often how it develops. When they think of economics, it is capitalism.  Many of these problems I think are mostly attributed to education and media. Both which are overly full of Bourgeois ideas.

The media is owned by the governemtn

If I recall, very little is state-owned. Almost all of it is corporate-owned, such as FOX With a small amount of state-owned, such as CPB. And then a small amount of small independent ones, which are usually an organisation or political party media.

every big piece of american society is owned by a corperation

Except people, slavery is outlawed. Though illegal slavery does exist, as in every country. Also one could say that by controlling your environment is in effect owning you, because people are more or less shaped by their environment.

anf that is where people get their news

Most of it, some such as I, prefer not to get all news from corporate-news, don't trust them much at all.

At a young age the few children who do pay some attention in school are taught of the failures and evils of communism citing Stalin as an example

So true, but then that is to be expected. Schools generally teach along the line of Bourgeoisie thought, because this is a capitalist society, therefore capitalist ideas are almost always the most taught and cherished of all ideas.

The people I believe that can spark the fires of the revolution the most which is the true working class, have mostly been crippled.

Then it is our job to help them get un-crippled, and teach them(which would include ourselves).

they have been kept ignorant, and brought into a lifestyle and mentality that prevents a rising up.

Done in many societies. E.g. in an earlier European feudalistic society, everything was done in accordance to the Catholic Church for the most part, didn't do what they say, or rebelled against them, you were a heretic, and outcast, condemned to hell.

Not to mention the rampant amount of drugs in the poor communities that keep them down.

I know, drugs are usually thought to be a way out of pain, because many seem to relieve the pain(for a short while). Also it is easier to criticize impovershed people by claiming that they are all drug-addicts, and that their own condition is through their own fault. That they should have spent their money wiser, that they should have worked harder, and that they are lazy, don't want jobs(even though a lot of them do have jobs),  that they wanted to be in their position, etc. etc. Its sort of like "blame the victim".

The government doesn't hear the voice of protestors anymore, they really don't have too.

They never always have. Did they hear people from "Coxey's Rebellion", "The Bonus Army", or worker's strikes(which many were suppressed by the government)?

Honestly the Hammer and Sickle is the best symbol we can have right now, it represent the workers and determination. It represents the strength the workers have united.

Not to mention the unification of industry and agriculture, and socialism. Which both are "for workers".

Anyways I think strong action needs to be made,

As many others have concluded, action brings change.

I mean we are just like the punk kids crying for anarchy

I can't stand most of those people, they don't usually understand things. And are just "anarchists" because of some need to be "rebellious".

we aren't in large numbers or taken seriously around here.

So true.

the people need to be informed, and action needs to be taken

Exactly.

I don't know how but I relize the old methods aren't really going to work.

I don't think that its "they don't work", its that they need time, it was never expected that a worker's revolution would just occur without any failure, or failure along the way to socialism. There would of course be failures.

[Jimi444]

i personally think that America will be the last country to turn Socialist, there is some ways still to help. When the Latin American countries (ie: Venezuela) turn to Socialism America will no doubtfully try to intervene and take it away. I think that the youth will need to make a strong front here in the States to make sure when the time comes that the US won't interfer with the international movement of socialism. The youth will be the best to convert to socialism because they have been far less brainwashed by the capitalist to believe in this failed system. You could compare it to quitting smoking, who is more likely to quit someone who has been smoking for 10 years or 30 years. I think that you could success from the working class, but i think that the youth would be more open and ready to defend socialism then the workers. idk, thats my two cents on the issue anyway, i still think that socialism will come  to America but the poorest countries will be the first and we need to fight for them here at home.

[Jimi444]

Also Charity won't help us improve our image at all. Look at the Black Panthers, they gave starving kids breakfest and the media called them the biggest threat to the nation. They were either hunted down and killed or put in jail. No matter how much good you do, Socialist in America will have to go through the same things and we have to except that the media and government will do anything to silence us or give a bad name.